Who was Lucifer? Isaiah 14

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SovereignGrace, Mar 27, 2016.

?

Who was Lucifer? Isaiah 14

  1. Satan

    1 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. Nebuchadnezzer

    1 vote(s)
    50.0%
  3. Don't know

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    2,781
    Likes Received:
    493
    Many ppl think Lucifer was Satan pre-casting out of heaven. I don't think the context bears that fruit however. I will start with verse 5 of Isaiah 14...

    The Lord has broken the rod of the wicked, the scepter of the rulers, which in anger struck down peoples with unceasing blows, and in fury subdued nations with relentless aggression. All the lands are at rest and at peace; they break into singing. Even the junipers and the cedars of Lebanon gloat over you and say, “Now that you have been laid low, no one comes to cut us down.[vss 5-8]

    These verses appear to be speaking about actual rulers, as it uses plural pronouns to explain what the context is, and whom it addresses.

    The realm of the dead below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you—all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones—all those who were kings over the nations. They will all respond, they will say to you, “You also have become weak, as we are;
    you have become like us.” All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.
    [vss 9-11]

    Again, the context appears to be addressing ppl and not Satan. Look at that which I bolded. That is descriptive of a physical body after burial.

    How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth,
    you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, “I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.” But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit. Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: “Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?”
    [vss 12-17]

    If you notice, the NIV does not use the word 'Lucifer' as other translations do. The context leading up to the passage was addressing actual ppl and not Satan, in my opinion. This is a picture of king Nebchadnezzer after he lost his mind and ate grass. In my opinion of course.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2015
    Messages:
    1,108
    Likes Received:
    266
    I agree with you that the passage isn't describing Satan, but in my opinion it isn't necessarily describing Nebuchadnezzar either. I reckoned it was about the current king.

    The pattern of prideful evil outlined in the passage, though, is something that we can see played out time and time again in earthly rulers. So it definitely fits Nebuchadnezzar.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  3. Sapper Woody

    Sapper Woody
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,112
    Likes Received:
    104
    If memory serves, "Lucifer" is from a Latin word, meaning "morning star", or "dawn". In English, we've taken it to be a proper noun, rather than a title or description.

    It's the same with the word " Satan ". We've come to use it for a specific being, when it is actually a positional title. Recall that Christ used the word of Peter.

    Sent from my QTAQZ3 using Tapatalk
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    12,148
    Likes Received:
    1,309
    The word in Hebrew is הילל (Lucifer) which is a noun in the masculine, singular, absolute. The masculine, singular, absolute usually, in Hebrew grammar, indicates a proper name.

    And שׂטן (Satan) is also a noun in the masculine, singular, absolute.

    So to translate both as proper names is completely in keeping with the rules of Hebrew grammar.

    In the case of Lucifer I believe the passage refers, in its primary meaning, to the King of Babylon, but in it secondary application is a type of the fall of Satan. :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,928
    Likes Received:
    369
    I agree with TCassidy (and it didn't hurt as much as I thought it would to say so Laugh ). I was looking for a "both" selection on the poll.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  6. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    2,781
    Likes Received:
    493
    It being the king of Babylon and a picture of Satan's fall is something I have thought of as well. Kudos.
     
  7. TomLaPalm

    TomLaPalm
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2016
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    8
    Lucifer is a Latin word from the Latin Vulgate, , "shining one" is the meaning of the Hebrew word "heylel"

    It is not Nebuchadnezzar (130 years later and one who finally recognized God as sovereign. )

    Notice the intention of Lucifer,

    "the king of Babylon" referred to here is the real power behind Babylon, or Satan (Arabic for Adversary) compare to the king of Tyre .

    Satan is acting through the kingdoms of man
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. rsr

    rsr
    Expand Collapse
    <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    10,073
    Likes Received:
    101
    The context is certainly the king of Babylon; Gill thinks it is Belshazzar, the last of the Babylonian kings; this partly because his overthrow ended the dynasty (which had sacked Jerusalem) and Isaiah 14:19, which indicates the individual was killed in battle, which would not apply to Nebuchadnezzar.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. beameup

    beameup
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2011
    Messages:
    915
    Likes Received:
    2
    I believe Belshazzar "saw the handwriting on the wall". Laugh
     
  10. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    2,781
    Likes Received:
    493
    Thanks everyone for your input. I think it's safe to say that Lucifer is not Satan. I do believe it is the King of Babylon. Now, what makes you think it is Belshazzer or Nebuchadnezzer?
     
  11. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,888
    Likes Received:
    37
    I evened the vote.

    To whom are the kingdoms of this world subjected? Rom 8:20 NKJV For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; Gen 2:3 KJV And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: (οἰκουμένην) he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Does Satan influence and deceive the thinking of the rulers of the kingdoms of the world? Beginning with the first king? Dan 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. Dan 10:12,13 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Are angels and demons involved in what is going on in the kingdoms of the world?

    What about when this takes place?

    And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Dan 2:44
    And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. Rev 20:3
    Is the kingdom God sets up the world to come?
    For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world (οἰκουμένην) to come, whereof we speak. Heb 2:5 The old world that was deceived by, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan?


    Who was Lucifer?
     
    • Creative Creative x 1
  12. TomLaPalm

    TomLaPalm
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2016
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    8
    angels are "messangers"
    Heb 1:14
    Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

    the receivers of the message are those in need of salvation.


    a third of the "elohyim " fell with Lucifer, These are evil spirits .

    Satan is as adversary a term from Arabic He is described as Old Dragon, Red Dragon , Devil, Old Serpent ,. transforms into angel of light

    translated from different languages , same being, Different stages, Lucifer before the fall, the other names after
     
  13. Calypsis4

    Calypsis4
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2015
    Messages:
    388
    Likes Received:
    12
    In my counseling over the last 32 yrs I have encountered quite a few demonized individuals who, when exposed by scripture manifested before me, sometimes to an astonishing degree. They used 'Lucifer' and 'Satan' interchangeably in reference to their master. Those devils never denied that they are one and the same. Isaiah 14 refers to Satan, the devil. Though the primary reference is to the 'king of Babylon' the text clearly looks beyond the king to that spirit that controlled him and his empire.
     
  14. rsr

    rsr
    Expand Collapse
    <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    10,073
    Likes Received:
    101
    Pure conjecture and completely disregarding context of the passages.
     
  15. rsr

    rsr
    Expand Collapse
    <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    10,073
    Likes Received:
    101
    And that would probably be from the traditional conflation of the two. How do you square the satan of Job and the satan of Matthew 15:23?
     
  16. TomLaPalm

    TomLaPalm
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2016
    Messages:
    291
    Likes Received:
    8
    conjecture on what?

    The names associated with Lucifer are throughout Scripture, derived from different languages and different descriptions. If you compile a list ,it is obvious. To deny Lucifer is Satan, the Devil, or the other names , is his favorite deception.
     
  17. Calypsis4

    Calypsis4
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2015
    Messages:
    388
    Likes Received:
    12
    Thanks for your question. Answer: there is nothing to 'square'. There is no conflation. The details of the description of Lucifer in Isaiah 14 can only be the devil...the fallen cherubim.
     

Share This Page

Loading...