Whose son is the Messiah?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bismarck, Apr 13, 2007.

  1. Bismarck

    Bismarck
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    Matthew 22 (ESV)
    Whose Son Is the Messiah?


    41Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, 42saying, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?" They said to him, "The son of David." 43He said to them, "How is it then that David, in the Spirit, calls him Lord, saying,

    44"'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I put your enemies under your feet'?

    45If then David calls him Lord, how is he his son?" 46And no one was able to answer him a word, nor from that day did anyone dare to ask him any more questions.​

    In Hebrew, the word "son" has the metaphorical meaning of "follower". I suspect that it is like the English saying, "like father like son", stemming from the fact that sons inherit so many things -- including jobs / trades -- from their fathers. But the fact remains that the Messiah seems to be making a pun on "son", for if David calls the Messiah "Lord", then David is a follower of the Messiah. And if David is a follower or "son" of the Messiah, how can the Messiah be David's son?

    I wonder if the reason why the Messiah isn't David's "son" -- in the metaphorical sense of follower -- is because the Messiah rebuilds the true Temple of God. Recall that the Christian Church is called the Body of Christ (Romans 12:5), which is the true Spiritual Temple of God made up of the "Living Stones" of individual believers (John 2:21, 1 Peter 2:5, Ephesians 2:20-22; see also Luke 19:40). Thus, the Messiah's ministry on Earth, through the evangelism of his Apostles and their baptisms of new Christian believers, amounted to the spiritual erection of the Spiritual Temple of God.

    Now, Saul Paulus (St. Paul) tells us, essentially, that the Priests and physical Temple are "a copy and shadow of the heavenly things" (Hebrews 8:5). That is, the physical Temple built by Solomon symbolized in physical stones the spiritual Temple to be built by the Messiah from the spiritual "living stones" of Christian believers.

    In other words, the Messiah -- as a (spiritual) temple builder -- is a Solomon-like figure. Furthermore, as a "Solomonic temple builder", the Messiah cannot be a "son", or follower, of David. This is because YHWH-God did not allow David to build His Temple:

    1 Chronicles 28 (ESV)
    David's Charge to Israel


    1David assembled at Jerusalem all the officials of Israel, the officials of the tribes, the officers of the divisions that served the king, the commanders of thousands, the commanders of hundreds, the stewards of all the property and livestock of the king and his sons, together with the palace officials, the mighty men and all the seasoned warriors. 2Then King David rose to his feet and said: "Hear me, my brothers and my people. I had it in my heart to build a house of rest for the ark of the covenant of YHWH and for the footstool of our God, and I made preparations for building. 3But God said to me, 'You may not build a house for My Name, for you are a man of war and have shed blood.'

    Thus, David, as a man of violence, was not allowed to build God's Temple in Jerusalem, the City of Peace (Ur-Shalom). Rather, God's Temple could only be built by a man of peace like Solomon (whose name, Shalomo, means Peaceful).

    This explains why the Messiah's Ministry was fully non-violent:

    John 18 (ESV)
    Betrayal and Arrest of Jesus


    10Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant[c] and cut off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.) 11So Yeshua said to Peter, "Put your sword into its sheath; shall I not drink the cup that the Father has given me?"​

    Indeed, this was the root of the Jews' failure to acknowledge Yeshua of Galilee as the true awaited Messiah. The Jews, in their anger and bloodlust, wanted a David-like Messiah, a man of violence and war who would conquer and subdue the heathen gentiles, slaughtering them out of the Holy Land. But the true Messiah was not a "son", or follower, of David in the path of violence and bloodshed. Instead, the Messiah could only be a "son", or follower, of Solomon in the path of Peace and non-violence.
     
  2. Linda64

    Linda64
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    Please answer this question

    Bismarck--

    I asked this question in another thread and I have seen a similar, and more definitive question asked of you in 3 other threads. You have not answered--therefore, I would appreciate a direct answer to a direct question--and please don't beat around the bush.

    My question is this: Do you believe that Jesus Christ is Deity?
     
  3. Jarthur001

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    yes Linda has asked this before.

    So has another poster.

    You have not answered so far

    Now I ask you...

    Do you believe Jesus Christ is God?
     
  4. Allan

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    I do! I do!

    He is fully God AND fully man :)
     
  5. Amy.G

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    I smell a rat! :laugh:
    What's the deal Bismark?


    Jesus Christ is God, Lord, Savior and my everything!

    :jesus: is God!
     
  6. LeBuick

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    Snif, snif... Yep, that be rat I smell... Next we'll see a long post that amounts to, "I'm not sure"

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Amy.G

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    After that, we can go like this.......:wavey:
     
  8. Benjamin

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    I've read through the OP a couple times and can't make heads nor tails of it as to where it's leading. Sounding a bit cosmic to me, and I do now have my suspicions, (Oneness) as per the cosmic discourse and phrases. Hope I am wrong though, and feel an explanation is required and appropriate.

    Edit to say> Sorry, but I call them as I see them. :laugh: :tonofbricks:
     
    #8 Benjamin, Sep 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2007
  9. Linda64

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    Matthew 16:13-18 13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    That "Rock" is Christ! In the O.T. God is called "the Rock" at least 30 times. In the N.T. Jesus Christ is called "the Rock" five times.

    Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

    1 Corinthians 10:4 ]And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    John 1:1-14 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    John 1:1-14 speaks of Jesus Christ--He is the Word Who was made flesh and dwelt among us--the only begotten of the Father--He is God and He is my Saviour!
     
    #9 Linda64, Sep 30, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 30, 2007
  10. LeBuick

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    Like you Linda, I usually run John 1 against Genesis 1. John appears to be expounding or clarifying what the Genisis writer said. Toss in Is. and how can we have doubt?
     
  11. Jkdbuck76

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    On other forums, Bismark would be labeled a "troll".

    I'm not saying that he's a troll, but if he were on other online forums, he'd be called a troll.
     
  12. saturneptune

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    Bismark,
    What we would really like to know is what were you smoking/sniffing/injecting before you wrote that post? It almost sounds like a speech by a politician. It goes on and on, and says nothing.

    Jesus is the Son of the Living God, and in fact, is God. His earthly father was Joseph. End of subject.
     
  13. David Lamb

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    I have thought for a little while now that Bismarck seems to start some rather unusual, and to me, esoteric, threads. I have just looked at the list of those he has started. They include:

    Madonna is Representative of Judaism

    50 AD: Peter vs. Paul, Claudius' Expulsion of Jews, Jerusalem Council

    True Church (=True Israel) possesses True Rabbinic Authority

    Salvation = Negative Sum Game ?

    What Really Happened at the Crucifiction — Talmud & Josephus

    "Save Us from the Romans" => Crucifixion

    Organized Conspiracy vs. Moses' Israel

    What Really Happend at the Murder of James bro. of Jesus — Jos. & Talmd

    Messiah = "Ultra-Torah" ​


    Yet he seems unwilling to answer what seems to me a simple question that several of us have asked him, in an attempt to try to work out "where he is coming from" - Does he, no scrap that, Do you, Bismarck, believe that Jesus Christ is God? Put the complex issues and the unusual names to one side just for a moment, and tell us if you will, who do you believe that Jesus Christ is? Of course if you do not wish to answer, that is up to you, but perhaps you could at least acknowledge the question, in view of the fact that several of us have asked it.
     
    #13 David Lamb, Oct 1, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 1, 2007
  14. ReformedBaptist

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    As many now ask what is Bismarck's real beliefs, I think the moderators should get involved. Methinks we have a troll.
     
  15. Linda64

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    Methinks you are probably right RB!
    :null:
     
  16. standingfirminChrist

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    Bismarck,

    If you would just answer the question that many have posed, you may be able to shed a little light on your true motives for all your threads you have started.

    If you are just trolling, as many have in the past, you may find that the mods may choose to "Sink the Bismarck."
     
  17. grahame

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    I don't think the word "son" means "follower" at all. I think the verse has been translated correctly. Christ is not David's son, he is his Lord and ours as the eternal Son of the living God. And being God's Son he is very God of very God.
     
  18. tjfkbrawny

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    The Messiah is both God's son and David's son.
     
  19. Gwen

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    I think that the word son is referring to Jesus being a descendant of David. Luke 2:4 says that Joseph was of the House and Lineage of David--meaning a descendant of David. So Jesus was the legal heir to the throne of Israel. And Mary's genealogy is listed as well, so our Lord has the bloodline thru Mary, and a is legal heir thru his mother's husband, Joseph. (Of course, his father was God!)
     
  20. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
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    Jesus was not 'of the bloodline of Mary'. She only carried Him, but it was not her blood. Genesis 3 states that Jesus was the seed of the woman, yet we know that a woman does not carry the seed... the man does!
     

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