Whose Son is YHVH, the Christ?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Seve, Aug 15, 2012.

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  1. Seve

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    In Matthew 22 we read the following...

    41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
    42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.
    43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
    44 Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
    45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
    46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

    Based on the Scripture, I believe Jesus is YHVH himself, the Son of the Invisible Almighty God Father - of whom no man hath seen at anytime nor his name has been revealed to anyone at this time.

    YHVH, the Son, is the only God physically formed for us to see and witness; before him there was no God formed.... neither there shall be after him. He was sent into this world and became flesh to save us from our sins..... became known as Jesus Christ in the NT.

    Your thought please...., please sustain your views with Scriptural texts. Thanks
     
  2. Revmitchell

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    What do you believe about Jews?
     
  3. Thinkingstuff

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    Just a question to you. Do you hold to a Modalistic view of God that God is one person that reveals himself in three ways or do you have a Trinitarian view that God is one God in three persons (not three gods)? And do you hold that YHWH is the same God as the one refered to as JHVH or called Lord in Elohim? Just wondering where you're coming from.
     
  4. The Biblicist

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    You are confusing the pre-incarnate eternal YHVH with what YHVH took UPON HIMSELF. What he TOOK UPON Himself was not YHVH but HUMANITY! Hence, there was NEVER any YHVH formed at any time anywhere.
     
  5. Seve

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    Based on MY OWN understanding of the Scripture, I believe God is one (echad) in unity not in number. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
     
  6. Revmitchell

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    OK? So do you believe Jesus is only God acting in a different mode?
     
  7. The Biblicist

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    YHVH is from everlasting but the human Jesus was born in time and space. So, don't you think that one must distinguish what YHVH is from what YHVH became and therefore distinguish between the humanity He took upon himself from himself who existed previous to the incarnation?
     
  8. Seve

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    In the Book of Isaiah 43, Our Lord YHVH, made the following declaration......

    Isaiah 43:10~11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD (YHVH), and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. v11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

    Note: To be witnessed is to be physically seen or experienced.

    In fact, the usage of the two negative words above (no & neither) actually resulted to a positive statement... He is the only God physically formed.... to be seen and witnessed.

    His Father is the invisible Spirit of Love (no physical shape or form) - which no man hath seen at anytime.... nor his name ' been revealed to anyone, at this time. Therefore, our Lord God (YHVH) of the Old Testament could not have been the invisible God Father as others would like us to believe.... but the Son of God himself. Beside him, there's no other saviour.

    Of course the above analogy is only based on my own biblical understanding. Thanks
     
  9. Thinkingstuff

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    So, it seems you are saying God is the first cause. But the question remains do you have a modalistic view of God or a trinitarian view of God? After some of the statements here seem modalistic such as
     
    #9 Thinkingstuff, Aug 15, 2012
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  10. The Biblicist

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    Well, thank you for clarifying the basis for your beleif. However, have you considered that any "God" that needs to be formed cannot be immutable, eternal, self-existent or "God" in any sense that the Father is "God"?

    Secondly, They are witnesses also that before him no god was formed. According to your logic they must have preexisted "before him" to know that no god was formed prior to Him?

    Thirdly, who do you believe the words "and my servant whom I have chosen" refers to?
     
  11. Seve

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    Based on my Biblical understanding..... God is one (echad) in unity.... NOT... in number.

    in fact, the Father and the Son are both separate entities, therefore, both are collective ONE God (Echad) in unity.

    John17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with THINE OWN SELF with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Based on the Scripture above.... accordingly....

    ....The Father has his ownself Being....

    .... the Son has his ownself Being as well...... even before the world was.... even before he was sent into this world and became flesh.

    My Conclusion: YHVH is not the Father but the Christ himself, the Son of God - the only God formed for us to see and witness... the great I AM of old.

    Thanks
     
  12. Revmitchell

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    Modalism and denial of the Trinity is complete heresy.
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    Have you considered that any god who is "formed" cannot be immutable, eternal, selfsufficient or any other attribute that makes "God" to be "God" as in the case with the Father? What God spoke in Malichi 3:6 - "I am YHVH and therefore I change not"? Who is it that is the "same yesterday, today and forever"? Who is it that says "I AM" rather than I was or will be? Do you understand the root meaning of YHVH?
     
  14. Thinkingstuff

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    An interesting answer. But it only leads to other questions. On this last post you seem to hold somewhat of a Trinitarian form but then you speaks as if there are multiple gods.

    Which leads me to ask this question. Your Contention is that the Creator of the universe is none other than Jesus Christ whom you think is revered to in the OT as YHWH. Yet you speak of God the Father as not being known and not himself revealed to us as the only witness to God visibly is Jesus Christ thus my question is do you hold that "in the invisible and ineffable heights above there exists a certain perfect, pre-existent (being) described as being invisible and incomprehensible. Eternal and unbegotten, he remained throughout innumerable cycles of ages in profound serenity and quiescence" (modified Irenaeus book 1) and that there existed either with the Father or produced from the Father another god Named YHWH whom is refered by us as echad or is the Father apart from the son Echad? What is your view?
     
  15. Seve

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    Correct, the invisible Almighty God Father is a Spirit that NEVER change - no physical shape or form... whatsoever.

    However, the begotten Son (YHVH, the Christ), is the express image of the invisible God.... for in him, dwelleth the fullness of Godhead , bodily (physically). The only God physically formed for us to see and witness.

    Therefore, accordingly...... No man hath seen God, the Father, at any time nor his name have been revealed to anyone at this time.... based on the Scripture.
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    Therefore, you must conclude there are TWO different types of "god"! One "God" that has attributes completey different from the other "god." One who is immutable while the other is mutable, one who is eternal while the other has a point of origin, one who is self-sufficient while the other dependent upon the former for existence.

    What do you do with the plentiful assertions that there is but "one" true God and there are no other gods before or after him?


    Does it bother you that not one single text in the Bible ever says that any God was ever formed? Indeed, it is YHVH that says no god existed before him nor any god formed after him?

    If no "god" existed before YHVH would not that be a complete denial that the Father is God?

    Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

    Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

    Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

    Do you claim the Father is God the eternal Spirit that existed prior to YHVH? How does your theory answer these scriptures that YHVH denies any "God" exists before him, beside him or that he knows of any other God except Him?

    In addition what do you do with John 1:1 and the assertion that The Word existed eternally and outside of creation? At what point was YVHV formed and made visible according to your theory?
     
    #16 The Biblicist, Aug 15, 2012
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  17. The Biblicist

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    How does your response above harmonize with Malichi 3:6 since it is YVHV that is speaking! You admit that YVHV is not the Father but changes and yet it is YVHV that is the One speaking in Malichi 3:6 claiming he never changes and He says this prior to incarnation?
     
    #17 The Biblicist, Aug 15, 2012
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  18. Seve

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    Correct. My version of “Trinity” differs from the traditional views. Look… insertions are mine only for presentation….

    1Jo 5:7 — For there are three (numeric) that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three (numeric) are one (compounded one in unity).

    No, I believe, the invisible Father is the CREATOR (ex-nihilo) of the heavens and earth… while the Son (YHVH), was the MAKER who formed our heavens and earth with his own physical hands - for inhabitation thereof.

    Correct, the Son (who was with God in the beginning; from everlasting) was BROUGHT FORTH (begotten) into this physical world, from the invisible spiritual realm of the Father, when God (the Father), commanded and said “LET THERE BE LIGHT” (Gen. 10:3).. and there was light.

    It was the brightness of the Glory of the Lord God (Son) who provided the light in the beginning (Gen. 1:3) before the world was…. Just as he would be the one to provide the light in the end…

    Rev. 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof.

    But of course, the above analogies are based only on my Biblical understanding of the Scripture.

    Thanks
     
    #18 Seve, Aug 15, 2012
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  19. Thinkingstuff

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    Thank you for clarifying your position. You hold a gnostic view God. Which is a very old belief system indeed. However, it is, I am sorry to say, a heretical belief system. And you have a similar though not exact version of what Arius believed. You are probably closer to VALENTINUS, and MARCUS. Jesus said I and the Father are One. It was determined long ago that Jesus is Homoosious with the Father or consubstantial with the Father. Jesus also said He who sees me sees the Father. So it is clear the Father is Fully revealed in the Son and that the Son and the Father are one. God is one God in 3 divine persons all equally one God. God is immutable therefore indivisable and is the first cause. The scriptures tell us in the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Paul says that in Jesus we live, move and have our being Acts 17 thus not only did God create the universe he maintains the universe.
    However, as you say you gained this view from relying on scriptures alone which brings that whole consept into question.
     
  20. Yeshua1

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    God is an Eternal Being, just ONE, but within his One being are THREE seperate persons, father/Son/Holy Spirit, and all three are equally God!

    ALL three have always existed!
     
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