Why attack Calvinism? Luther too? :)

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Edward63, Jul 15, 2013.

  1. Edward63

    Edward63
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    Read the words of Martin Luther, Bondage of the Will, CI -

    Sect. CI. — AND with respect to that of Malachi which Paul annexes, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated;” (Mal. i. 2-3). that, the Diatribe perverts by a threefold contrivance. The first is – “If (it says) you stick to the letter, God does not love as we love, nor does He hate any one: because, passions of this kind do not pertain unto God.” —

    What do I hear! Are we now inquiring whether or not God loves and hates, and not rather why He loves and hates? Our inquiry is, from what merit it is in us that He loves or hates. We know well enough, that God does not love or hate as we do; because, we love and hate mutably, but He loves and hates from an eternal and immutable nature; and hence it is, that accidents and passions do not pertain unto Him.

    And it is this very state of the truth, that of necessity proves “Free-will” to be nothing at all; seeing that, the love and hatred of God towards men is immutable and eternal; existing, not only before there was any merit or work of “Free-will,” but before the worlds were made; and that, all things take place in us from necessity, accordingly as He loved or loved not from all eternity. So that, not the love of God only, but even the manner of His love imposes on us necessity. Here then it may be seen, how much its invented ways of escape profit the Diatribe; for the more it attempts to get away from the truth, the more it runs upon it; with so little success does it fight against it!

    But be it so, that your trope stands good — that the love of God is the effect of love, and the hatred of God the effect of hatred. Does, then, that effect take place without, and independent of, the will of God? Will you here say also, that God does not will as we do, and that the passion of willing does not pertain to Him? If then those effects take place, they do not take place but according to the will of God. Hence, therefore, what God wills, that He loves and hates. Now then, tell me, for what merit did God love Jacob or hate Esau, before they wrought, or were born? Wherefore it stands manifest, that Paul most rightly adduces Malachi in support of the passage from Moses: that is, that God therefore called Jacob before he was born, because He loved him; but that He was not first loved by Jacob, nor moved to love him from any merit in him. So that, in the cases of Jacob and Esau, it is shewn — what ability there is in our “Free-will”!
     
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    I agree.... we should be attacking the Catholics & also John Wesley.

    Seriously though.... If we are true Christians, we need not attack anyone.....but that gets lost in this world of carnality.
     
  3. DrJamesAch

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    Martin Luther:

    "That seditious articles of doctrine should be punished by the sword needed no further proof. For the rest, the Anabaptists hold tenets relating to infant baptism, original sin, and inspiration, which have no connection with the Word of God, and are indeed opposed to it. ... Secular authorities are also bound to restrain and punish avowedly false doctrine ... For think what disaster would ensue if children were not baptized? ... Besides this the Anabaptists separate themselves from the churches ... and they set up a ministry and congregation of their own, which is also contrary to the command of God. From all this it becomes clear that the secular authorities are bound ... to inflict corporal punishment on the offenders ... Also when it is a case of only upholding some spiritual tenet, such as infant baptism, original sin, and unnecessary separation, then ... we conclude that ... the stubborn sectaries must be put to death."

    Yup, Luther was as much of a blankety blank as John Calvin. Happy!:thumbs:
     
  4. Herald

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    There are some opponents of Calvinism that are not content just to dissgree with it. They feel compelled to leave no stone unturned in attacking it. To be fair there are Calvinists who do the same thing against Arminianism. It's one thing to have meaningful debate. It's quite another to be consumed; almost pathological in attacking those you disagree with. The best thing to be done is to avoid such people if possible. It is the only reason I am able to participate on the BB.
     
  5. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Its not almost, it is pathological....like OCD.....you become obsessed. The IGNORE FEATURE = RELIEF! :thumbs:
     
  6. sag38

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    Some on both sides need to be banned for a while. It might just put a stop to this infantile bickering for a while.
     
  7. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    So your suggesting that you can never curtail "Bad Behavior" till you punish it?
     
  8. Herald

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    I was just trying to be diplomatic. :)
     
  9. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    IC....but to get at the root causes of neurotic behavior, you sometimes need to be brutally truthful otherwise the neuroses takes over.
     
  10. preacher4truth

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    Seriously I've not witnessed one viable attack brought upon the DoG/Reformed/Calvinism, in book, debates on radio, video, nor on any forum including the BB. Truth is solid, the polemics others use against Calvinism are generally weak and stem from a faulty theology altogether.

    I don't know that we should attack RCC, Arminianism, Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism, Anti-Calvinists, and other weak theologies of the same ilk, as I see nothing in Scripture saying to attack these errors. I do however see that we of the other camp are to earnestly contend for the faith, and that faith is the faith we as DoG/Reformed/Calvinists hold to and is why the answers given by this camp are always solid Biblically. These Biblical answers typically and readily dismantle the arguments from the other side.
     
  11. sag38

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    Out of one side of your mouth you say, "I don't know that we should attack...." But, out of the other side come words like "weak, faulty logic, errors." You sound like Benjamin.
     
  12. preacher4truth

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    I apologize that you don't know what an attack is. If little words like that which expose error and tell the truth offend you perhaps you should put me on ignore, because I'm going to use them.

    I was more than happy when a person confronted me and told me the truth that as a non-Calvinist my theology was weak, faulty, and erroneous and that most anti-Cal Baptists use kindergarten theology. I thank God for those truthful words and didn't look at it as an attack.

    By the way, I am nothing like benjamin.
     
  13. DrJamesAch

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    So says the "preacher" with the signature of a slave owner. Just what "biblical truth" did Jonathan Edwards use to justify owning slaves? And it certainly defies the facts of history that Calvinists never attacked their opponents. They attacked them in the most literal way-with sword and fire. Calvinism and Lutheranism both were borne out of the blood of their opponents.
     
  14. MB

    MB
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    The difference is none of us here bragg about what great men any reformer is. We don't worship men, only Christ. Wesley was a reformer as well All Arminians are reformers they came out of the reformation same as you. In fact they came from Calvinist like you. What your blindness won't let you see is that there are many more Christians than just reformers. You may believe the Catholic church was the only church until the reformation. This is not true to history. I know you've been told this before but the Catholic church did not exist until Constantine in 325 AD At that time there have been many other Christians who opposed the Catholic faith. The Catholic Church was not the first Church. That is nonsense. And what Calvinist face here on this board is not Arminians, but born again Christians who do not believe in Calvinism or any of it's doctrines.
    MB
     
  15. MB

    MB
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    I agree he does sound like Benjamin.
    MB
     
  16. DrJamesAch

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    Well said.

    The problem is that the Calvinist will never just be honest about what they really believe in 2 major areas: 1) God doesn't love everybody 2) That non Non Calvinist is really saved. They will tell you that you hate the Bible, hate the sovereignty of God, everything short of saying you are not saved. They will tell sinners that God loves them when they don't believe that.

    The ONLY reason that they bite their tongues is because they know they will lose credibility if they were really honest about their beliefs, and said so without any ambiguity. Calvinism would ruin it's reputation if they were honest about the implications of their beliefs.

    But, just like the Muslims who use the Quraysh method of lying until they get an advantage, Calvinism maintains a dishonest approach in order to gain converts, and that's why they get so frustrated with those that force them to face the logical implications of their belief systems.
     
  17. MB

    MB
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    The reason is that there isn't much truth in Calvinism. It's just warmed over Catholicism. Let's face the truth. Calvinism is Catholicism for all intents and purposes. That is what reform means. These men just reformed the same old doctrines of the old Catholic faith. The reformation happened because of changes in the RCC, that Calvin and Luther didn't agree with. The same thing happened with the Mormons. You are all still Catholic and won't admit it. Just like the reorganized Mormons are still Mormons. You are still Catholics
    MB
     
  18. MB

    MB
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    Absolutely true and Good post.
    MB
     
  19. Rippon

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    I'll give you this --you start sinning up a storm from the get-go.

    Arminians wanted to "reform" Reformational theology; otherwise they should not in the least be considered reformers.

    As a "born-again Christian" you should not want to deny biblical doctrines.
     
  20. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Do me a favor & phone up a Primitive Baptist or an Old regular Baptist church & ask them if they are Calvinists....would you please do that for me & then ask the question "Why" or "Why Not", OK.

    Then ask them if they consider themselves Protestants.... again then ask why or why not. Then give the number to Benjamin so he can go through the same exercise.

    Lastly you do know what happens when you assume dont you? If you dont, I would be more than happy to inform you.

    PS: What Calvinists face here is not people with differences of opinion about theology (well maybe sometimes) because those folks operate rationally & decently. However what your referring to is not that type...rather they are notedly Anti Calvinistic...those totally opposed to the practice of The Doctrines of Grace as a legitimate systematic theology...which of course, by the way, is guaranteed under the Constitution of the USA.

    So by your commentary, your pronouncing yourself as a Born Again Christian & at the same time suggesting that the Calvinist is not.....is that not your correct interpretation? Do you also believe, tell the truth, that the Calvinist is not saved? Id like you to answer the question honestly as you truly believe it, like a Christian man should.
     

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