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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by kyredneck, Feb 25, 2011.
.....he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth. Ro 9:18
Amen. And those he is temporarily hardening, Israel, might be provoked to envy and leave their unbelief and be saved (Rom 11:14-21) After all, God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he might have mercy on them all.
"..he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth."
Notice the WHOM ? The text is not referring to a nation, but to individuals:
".....not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles"
Jews AND non-Jews.
God hardens those who harden themselves toward God. Other than that He is willing that all come to Him for salvation.
I don't have a problem with this being about individuals. Nations are made up of individuals after all. It doesn't change the clear intent of Paul. There are individuals in Israel being hardened because God has "held out his hands to them all day long" (Rm 10:21) and they rejected him, they are stumbling over the stumbling stone (Rm 9:32). All the while there is also a remnant of Israel he has reserved from this hardening so that they would take the message to the world (apostles like Paul). So, some individual Jews were being chosen for noble purposes (like Paul) and others were being judicially hardened in their already rebellious state, but they might be provoked to envy (11:14) and leave their unbelief and be grafted back in again (11:23). Likewise, individual gentiles (many of them apparently) are coming to faith, while others of them have chosen to remain in their sinful rebellion and ignorance (Rm 1).
As Paul summarizes the chapter saying, "What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." Clearly, it is about individuals who make up these nations. So we agree! :thumbs:
He will have mercy on those who trust in His Son and harden those who don't so they will get no pleasure out of it. Anyone who turns to the Lord the veil will be removed and see God as He truly is.
God isn't showing mercy in some random choosing the scripture teaches those who trust in the Lord will not be put to shame, or be disappointed.
In His sovereignty God can choose how He wants to save us and man can do nothing to change it. They can even throw God sovereignty card in and even God will say what's it to you how I choose to save and make them my people who will live with me for eternity.
No, we don't agree.
You're of the erroneous notion that God's foreknowledge consists of Him looking into the future and seeing beforehand which men will do such and such, and upon that premise He then either brings them into this world as a vessel unto honor BECAUSE of their choice [ultimately], or a vessel unto dishonor BECAUSE of their choice [ultimately].
The text plainly says: “....it is not of him that willeth.....but of God that hath mercy.”
If it wasn't for Calvinist I would still be walking around saying I am saved because I believed in Jesus. I do not hate Calvinist because they have changed my prospective in many ways.
I still don't see those scripture with his prospective.
It is the will of God that believers those who trust in His Son are saved, it is the choice of God that those who believe trust in His Son are saved. If it is by my will and decision then I can take the wide road and still get to heaven but it isn't only those who trust in His Son will be saved by the word of God.
It isn't my word, I didn't wake up one day and say I will trust in Jesus, if it wasn't for Jesus and His word I wouldn't have any faith that is a gift to have.
I am saved because of the word of God.
God hasn't only placed life before us by His word but death to those who do not believe trust in His Son have already been condemned for one reason only because they have not believed in Jesus trusted in Him.
The Lord does absolutely nothing at random. Why non-Cals here keep saying that is so perverse.
"They can even throw God's sovereignty card in." Amazing word choice. The Lord is sovereign,okay. No one one has to throw it in --it's a given,though many hate that perfectly biblical understanding of God's nature.
The Lord has chosen before the foundation of the world those whom He will save in time. The Lord has mercy on those He wants to mercy,and hardens those whom He so chooses to harden. It is His sovereign right as Lord.
See I am not aguing those who are there before the foundation of the world, in His sovereign choice He has also included with them those who have heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed to replace those who He disowned and not able to enter because of unbelief.
I am careful of what I believe if God did not spare these natural branches what makes me better than them?
Why can't men believe this outrageous truth?
Probably because we have problems with the process (for lack of a better term) that results in the mercy or the hardening.
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
We are not given the details and/or the rules of order of the Triune counsel. Probably because we couldn't comprehend it anyway.
But we aren't asked to understand it.
Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
So even if you have a problem (or not) with Romans 9:18, Luke 10:20 is there.
Not to mention:
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
True, it's only for the thirsty who hear Him.
John 3:16 - Does "world" mean "world?"
Well, does it? It does mean all living humans, hence, world... Man chooses to be saved or not, as the Spirit draws.
Better be ready to start "dancing" John. You will understand my meaning shortly. Good Luck here. Stay strong, be courageous.
Thanks, I will stay on my toes here in baptist board. I know what I believe and I know why I believe it. For some strange reason we wll do not believe the same thing. :tongue3: I do love the saved of every belief. I just hope that we are all convinced in our own minds, for we are the only ones that will stand for us in the judgement.
Yep, be ready to have words like "peverse" thrown your way.
With regard to the point you made about individuals, we do.
Show me where I've ever made that argument. That is not at all how I would represent true scholarly Arminian theology.
Who were the people of that time who were willing and running after the law and thinking they were getting to heaven through their works? Israel. Paul was simply showing that it wasn't about those who strive after it, its about God who can show mercy to whosoever he pleases, even the dirty Gentile people, which is why Paul concluded the chapter with the summary statement: "What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."
The word is perverse.
Rippon, were you a spelling beigh champion?
Who are the saved of every belief ? Do you know them individually ? Can you name them one by one ?
And what do you mean by "every belief" ? Do you mean their theological belief ? Or credal belief ? or soteriological belief ?