Why Didn't Christ Pray For....

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ktn4eg, Jun 8, 2012.

  1. ktn4eg

    ktn4eg
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    ....The World?

    As it often happens, I've read over the REAL Lord's Prayer in John 17 many times before, however in my daily devotions today there was something that hit me for the first time:

    "I pray for them [the ones the Father gave to Christ, v. 5ff]: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." --- John 17:9

    From what I gather from the context of the verse, the word "world" doesn't seem to be referring to "the world system" but to people, individual human beings.

    I know that there are no contradictions in God's Word, but OTOH this verse seems to be telling that Jesus is only praying for "them thou hast given me," and not for every person that was, is or ever shall be here on earth.

    With my limited understand of a lot of things pertaining to God's Word, how am I to reconcile what John 17:9 is seeming to tell me with other verses such as the well-known John 3:16 or II Peter 3:9 ("The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.")?

    Any help that my BB friends can give me in this matter would be a great help to me in how I'm to rightly understand John 17:9 with such verses as, among others, that I've mentioned above.
     
  2. Scarlett O.

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    He did pray for the whole world, just not in verses 6-15. But He did pray for the whole world in verses 20-23.

    It's my understanding of the bulk of chapter 17 is that Jesus is praying for specifically the 11 disciples who will be left behind after His death. He is greatly concerned about them. He knows that the devil has asked God for permission to "sift Peter as wheat". He know that they will all scatter like quail at His arrest and that only young John will stand by the cross and watch Him die. He knows that they are going to be very fearful and some will even, after His resurrection, go back to fishing because they just don't know what to do.

    And I think there is some evidence that He is specifically praying for these 11 men in His words in verses 6 - 15.

    Jesus knew that His physical presence would soon be gone and that the disciples would likely not know what to do without Him. He asked God to protect them, use them, and sustain them.

    Now, Jesus did pray for the whole world in verse 20 - 23.

     
    #2 Scarlett O., Jun 8, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2012
  3. kyredneck

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    Kosmos, 'the arrangement'. This is the 'arrangement that is meant in this passage:

    Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing.
    Jn 18:20

    But of course if you're Dispy you have a real problem accepting that.

    Kinda like:

    49 I came to cast fire upon the earth (read the 'land'); and what do I desire, if it is already kindled?
    50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
    51 Think ye that I am come to give peace in the earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
    52 for there shall be from henceforth five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
    53 They shall be divided, father against son, and son against father; mother against daughter, and daughter against her mother; mother in law against her daughter in law, and daughter in law against her mother in law.
    54 And he said to the multitudes also, When ye see a cloud rising in the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it cometh to pass.
    55 And when ye see a south wind blowing, ye say, There will be a scorching heat; and it cometh to pass.
    56 Ye hypocrites, ye know how to interpret the face of the earth and the heaven; but how is it that ye know not how to interpret this time? Lu 12

    There was a wrath that was coming upon 'that generation' of 'the land', foreordained, foretold, and prophesied.

    But of course if you're Dispy you have a real problem accepting that.
     
    #3 kyredneck, Jun 8, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 8, 2012
  4. Benjamin

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    Along the same lines as Scarlett O I would stress the proper understanding comes in that Christ has merely become specific on whom He is addressing at the moment:

    I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
    (Joh 17:9)

    He prays not for the world – Not in these appeals, at this time which are adjusted to the state of believers only. He prays for the world later on:

    That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
    (Joh 17:21-23)

    17:9 does not go to show that the Lord did not pray for the world, which He did before and after any more than it would go show that He only prays for His apostles alone. In fact the scriptures in the passage of John 17 show that He prayed for them also which shall believe on Him through their (the apostles) words.

    Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
    (Joh 17:20)
     
  5. agedman

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    I laugh at those who want to make the prayer specific for the times and those whom Jesus gathered, and provide nothing specific for the future believers.

    It is certain that the verse of the OP is constantly and consistently being coupled with the present believers and the future believers in the passage of John; some would prefer that it only be applicable to the contemporaries of Jesus, but that just isn't the context.



    BTW, for kyredneck, there isn't any reason why "dispy" would struggle over any Scripture you post, and more, any pertaining to the wrath of God.


    There are many times God pronounces the wrath.

    He pronounced the wrath to fall upon the city of Jerusalem; it certainly happened. He has promised the bowls of God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth during the tribulation times; there is no reason to doubt that it will not happen.

    I know some post in opposition to "dispy" thinking, however it is important to be a bit more accurate in exactly what Scriptures are used to oppose the "dispy." I have yet met a "dispy" that didn't take God's word more literal that any other view commonly taught.

    Though, I do admit, there are probably some extreme "dispy" thinking that a few might hold that I would also contend against; any view can be taken to the extreme and out of balance with the fulness of the Scriptures.
     
  6. Benjamin

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    I think some just like to say things make them laugh because they are arrogant and along with having poor comprehension and communication skills they are constantly trying to read something into or out of scriptures (like Dispensationalism, or Hyper-Determinism) and often try to do the same things with other's people's words to suite their agendas, but what they are really doing is simply trying to be insulting cuz they have a chip on their shoulder when they say "I laugh".
     
  7. kyredneck

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    I forgot to add....'and fulfilled'!
     
  8. Winman

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    Not to get off the subject, but I disagree with this statement by Scarlett;

    The scriptures do not say Satan asked God for permission to sift Peter as wheat, only that Satan DESIRED to sift Peter as wheat.

    Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
    32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

    Many people falsely assume that Satan must get permission to afflict people as he did in the story of Job. This is not true. Job had a "hedge" about him because he was obedient to God. God has promised to protect those who obey him. There is no protection promised to the disobedient or the unbeliever. In fact, Satan can take unbelievers captive "at his will".

    2 Tim 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
    26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

    Satan is not some sort of servant to God performing God's dirty work. Satan is the enemy of God, he is God's adversary. He has the power to do a great many things at his will. In the case of Job, once this protective hedge was removed, Satan was able to bring down the Sabeans who killed Job's servants and stole away the oxen and asses. Satan was also able to cause fire to fall from heaven which consumed Job's sheep, and Satan was able to cause a great wind that collapsed the house of Job's eldest son, killing all his children.

    God does not fight against himself. Jesus made this clear when he said a house divided against itself cannot stand. God did not cause people to be possessed by devils, Satan did. Jesus destroyed the works of the devil and cast them out.

    God did not cause the great storm that threatened to capsize the boat Jesus and the disciples were in, Satan did. Jesus destroyed the works of Satan and rebuked the wind.

    God gets the blame for lots of bad things that Satan causes. Satan is not working FOR God, he is working AGAINST God.
     
  9. Scarlett O.

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    Winman, I am only going on what I read in the Holman version - "Simon, Simon, look out! Satan has asked to sift you like wheat. But I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail. And you, when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”

    So after reading your post and looking at the King James "desired", I looked into at many versions as I could online. The overwhelming majority say "asked, asked for permission, and demanded".

    So after that, I looked up the word desired in Strong's Concordance under the King James version and in that particular verse it said that "desired" was the Greek word ἐξαιτέω [exaiteō] and that the word means "to ask from, demand of, to ask or beg for one's self, to ask that one be given up to one from the power of another'.

    I do believe that the devil could not drive Peter to the point of denying Christ like he did unless God allowed it.

    And to me, that doesn't mean that the devil does God's "dirty work". I don't believe that.

    Yes, God gets blames sometimes for things that the devil does. Yes, the devil has a limited amount of power. He is enemies with God, but he is not equal in nature nor power to God. He is only what God always him to be.

    God does not used Satan to do bad things. But Satan can only go so far in doing evil.

    I believe that he literally "asked" for permission to test Peter.


     
  10. kyredneck

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    Exactly as he did with Job:

    11 But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will renounce thee to thy face.
    12 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thy hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of Jehovah. Job 1

    5 But put forth thy hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will renounce thee to thy face.
    6 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thy hand; only spare his life. Job 2
     
  11. Iconoclast

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    You are correct of course Jn 17 is speaking about God's Covenant love for His elect. The apostles, and those who he saves out of the world through their word.
    Jesus was sent by the Father to seek and save His elect. he has accomplished redemption for them ,and them alone wherever they are scattered throughout the world. there was a time where they were only in israel, but now they are scattered world wide.
    That is how John speaks of them jn 1150-52
    prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

    52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

    Those who try and deny the clear teaching fail miserably.it is in Jn 6, Jn 10 ,and Hebrews 2.
    Jesus died for His people, the church, the sheep, the wheat, the elect, the seed of abraham...
    Just keep reading it...and think about it. You are seeing it as it is in truth!

    :thumbs::applause::thumbs::applause:
     
  12. HeirofSalvation

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    #12 HeirofSalvation, Jun 9, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 9, 2012

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