Why do Calvinists react differently here?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by William C, May 25, 2003.

  1. William C

    William C
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    I had a very interesting conversation with a couple of my Calvinistic friends the other day. One of these guys I had actually introduced to Calvinism years ago. Both of them still thought I was a Calvinist when we began our conversation the other day. It was very...different...

    We began talking about theology and one of guys asked me a question about Limited Atonement or something Calvinistic theology assuming that I still held to those views and could provide him some insight. I really didn't want to get into it with these guys so I kinda avoided the topic for a while. After some time of their presisting with questions I threw out a few thoughts about my objections to Total Depravity and how it relates to scriptures teaching of hardening etc, and asked them to tell me what they thought. I was shocked by their replies!

    They began looking through their bibles and openly engaging me in meaningful and insightful dialogue on the subject. They both must of said at least 5 different times throughout our discussion, "I hadn't ever seen it like that." Or "That does make sense, I wonder what this or that scholar would say about that." Or "I'm not sure how to answer that, I'll have to study this for awhile."

    Never did one of them criticize me, demean my questions, downplay my arguments or act as if they weren't relevant. They were admittedly challenged by my objections and responded truthfully and openly to those challenges.

    One of them emailed me today and wrote, "I still haven't found any answers to those questions you raised the other day. I haven't stopped looking though. I get back with you next weekend."

    This is a guy with a Ph.D. and has been a Calvinist for over 32 years. I respect him greatly! He doesn't pretend that my questions aren't difficult for his system. He doesn't demean me. He doesn't dismiss my arguements as being irrelevant.

    I wish we could have these types of discussions here on this board. I think our pride sometimes keeps us from admitting when others make a good argument or when we don't know how to respond to an arguement. I am including myself here. This as been an issue that has divided the church for generations and has stumped many great minds, I don't think we should be ashamed to admit the weaknesses of our systems and seek to understand the truth of God's Word.

    Thanks for listening. [​IMG]
     
  2. Frogman

    Frogman
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    One time a preacher delivered a message on prayer. Afterword he was met as he left the pulpit, by two deacons. They each held conflicting views concerning the proper position to be in while praying. During the sermon the preacher had said that prayer could be fervent and effective from any position, it only depended upon the Grace and Will of God.

    One of the deacons argued that prayer must be by kneeling in order to be effective, the preacher countered that kneeling, sitting, or standing didn't have any effect on the prayer, but only the Will of God. Therefore, there was no 'best' position for prayer.

    The second deacon interjected 'I disagree with the both of you', in their discussion they had not realized he was standing and listening and they were surprised when he spoke up. Looking at him astonished they said, well what is your belief?

    He said, the best position for prayer is hanging upside down in a well, I can vouch for this method as it happened to me just yesterday and I have never called on the name of the Lord as fervently as I did yesterday.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  3. William C

    William C
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    Dallas,

    You do seem to be one of the few here who deal with the arguements honestly...

    ...most of the time. [​IMG]

    Thanks [​IMG]
     
  4. Frogman

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    Does that mean the rest of the time you think I am being dishonest? :confused:

    Bro. Dallas
     
  5. William C

    William C
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    No. I was just poking fun. [​IMG]


    I wonder why no one else responded to this?
     
  6. tyndale1946

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    That was really moving Brother Bill... Now I have a question for you... Did you think of inviting those men over here where they could hear our side or is yours the only one that counts? We have hashed and rehashed your hardening questions over and over again... With never the twain shall meet... We still disagree!... But you know what Brother Bill?... I get back with you next weekend :D ... Brother Glen :eek:
     
  7. William C

    William C
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    Glen,

    Can you point out the time and day that you "rehashed" any of my questions concerning hardening? I don't recall that.

    BTW, its good to have you back Glen. [​IMG]
     
  8. Hardsheller

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    Bill,

    I think the reason why we're different on the board is because we don't really know each other personally.
     
  9. William C

    William C
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    Yes, I think you are right Hardsheller.

    Maybe we should consider each other arguments as if they were coming from those we know and respect so that we can deal with them honestly and objectively. I know I'm too quick to dismiss arguments simply because I don't know the person making the argument.

    I have little doubt Pastor that if I lived in New Bloomfield, MO that you and I would be close friends who could talk through these issues objectively.

    God Bless. [​IMG]
     
  10. tyndale1946

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    Brother Bill I disagree... Underneath Post a reply... Click on the area called search... Type in the word hardening... There are as of this date 25 references to the word hardening in 25 topics including this one. Like I said we hashed and rehashed this topic to death. Any of you brethren are free to do the same don't just take my word for it... Total Depravity was the buzz word around here for quite awhile until you showed up Brother Bill... Hardening was a diversion in variety and got the brethren to thinking and stirred up the blood and pure minds but I hold to Total Depravity... Like I say time and time again... To each his own!... We beat the hardening horse to death and he never got to the finish line!... Oh Well! :rolleyes: ... Brother Glen :cool:
     
  11. William C

    William C
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    Interesting that you say this Glen. Total Depravity is a man made term and Hardened is a scriptural term, yet you think that the term hardening has been over used but your man made term "total depravity" has not. What about other man made terms like effectual calling and irresistable grace, have those terms been over used too?

    Why is it that when a Calvinists keeps bringing up Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement or Irresistable grace it's ok to rehash it again and again, but if someone shows up and uses an actual biblical term like hardening you think I'm "beating a dead horse."

    Glen, do you think the bible is a dead horse, or is it just the terms the bible uses to describe man's inablity that you don't like?
     
  12. Frogman

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    Now he is in the glue factory....there is your hardening... :D

    Bro. Dallas Eaton [​IMG]
     
  13. Frogman

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    Bro. Bill,
    What does hardening carry for its point?

    Will it prove or disprove the Sovereignty of God?

    The Scripture teaches that both Pharoah and God worked to bring forth the hardening of Pharoah that resulted in the fullness of God's wrath to be poured out in judgement upon the nation that held Israel in bondage and to the extent that when they came out they came out with great substance, not borrowed, but given to them from their Egyptian neighbors, thankful to see them go.

    What is the point of hardening? If my heart is moved upon to act mercifully and it is not in the eternal Will of God for this to occur, then will God not be Sovereign in hardening me?

    I can only answer from my own life and this answering is such that in some things I am hardened of myself, while in others I would wish to be more merciful, yet the Word of God operates to harden. The difficulty is IMHO that the believers of the world fear the accusation of the world that God is unjust and have backed up on the commission to teach the Doctrines and are trying to apologize for the actions of God. God requires no apology and most especially not one formulated by men.

    Bro. Dallas Eaton [​IMG]

    [btw, I knew you were not seriously saying I was dishonest, I just had a moment of hardening and it manifested itself]. :rolleyes:
     
  14. Gina B

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    Brother Dallas, these men obviously gave you some meaningful discussion and some insight you had been looking for. That's great!
    Can you share some of the questions you asked and the answers they gave you, or questions they asked and answers you gave them?
    We could ALL use some decent discussion, perhaps this will be the thread where it happens!
    Gina
     
  15. Sherrie

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    Bro. Bill...are you getting soft on us? [​IMG] .... Get it? I made a Joke...Hardening...going soft... [​IMG]

    Sherrie [​IMG]
     
  16. Frogman

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    Gina,
    I don't understand your post, the post about prayer was not something that happened to me, I just heard it told.

    But the meaning I get from it is that prayer is useless until it has a purpose in the Will of God, the man who was hanging upside down had a definite earnestness about his spirit and most definitely would have been calling on the name of the Lord.

    As far as the horse in the glue factory, I had a horse once when I was a kid, well, he was a painted pony and we lived in Poteau OK and I thought I was a cowboy. We used to run him every weekend trying to catch him, then some guys who worked with my dad did catch him, but he nearly killed everyone that tried to ride him, once, for two weeks my cousins came out from KY, and we chased the horse everyday. the last day they were there we caught him, the only way we could sit on him was if someone was leading him, you know,[2 Kings 19:28]   with a bit and bridle, I believe this horse was hardened. He wanted to kill everything that was created in the image of God.

    My grandpa Eaton had a mule once, he was a baptist too, the mule I mean. He was stubborn, so stubborn my grandpa shot him with a shotgun, then each time the screen door would slam shut he would jump and run, tearing down corn and tobacco or whatever he was plowing in. He was a baptist because he was hardened until the fear of God was put into him from an outside force, then when he heard what he believed to be the cue of that again he pulled the plow through that ol KY dirt so fast, no written plan for this ol mule, all expository and extemporaneous.

    The once we had a rooster when I was a kid, if you left the porch light on he would crow all night, I use to wonder if he was descendant from that rooster who crowed to the power of God to awaken that baptist Peter out of his back-slidden condition, I dunno. But one thing is sure, he was baptist, whenever he saw the light there was no shutting him up.

    These are about as much as I know about hardening. As far as prayer, I do not believe every prayer reaches the throne of Grace, if it did, the time that I prayed for rain on my crops and my neighbor prayed for the rain to hold off till he could harvest his hay, then wouldn't God look silly catering to the whim of man?

    Once I saw a baptist dog, he was a real hard-sheller, how do I know? He had taken up residence at a UMC and everytime people would try to enter the church he would bark like all get out, like the world depended upon it, the last time I saw him was a couple of weeks ago, at a wedding we attended, he was yet true to the faith, barking his message to everyone in the church yard, and even chasing some of the more hardened ones down the road a piece. I wished I had a chicken leg to give him, but I didn't.

    Once I heard of an old preacher that use to tell everyone the only reason he preached was because he loved chicken, finally one day a young preacher scolded him and told him he shouldn't tell that, someone may believe it, he laughed and replied if they did it was good enough for them.

    Was you talking about the story of the sermon on prayer? Or the dead horse in the glue factory? Or my dishonesty? Or the story of Pharoah and Moses, you know I wasn't there personally, I just repeated that from scripture.

    If anyone is unsure about God hardening men, or men hardening themselves, does the bible teach that all nations will rise against Israel? Is the USA a nation? Will we rise against Israel and if so, will it be by the hardening of men, or will God send a strong delusion upon our land that those living then shall believe a lie?

    It isn't that no-one wishes to not discuss hardening, but we just don't see in it the making of justification for the free will of man.

    Also Job 41

    Bro.Dallas Eaton
    [​IMG]
     
  17. Frogman

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    I got it 'mumsy'

    It was a good one too, I thought. [​IMG]

    It made me laugh and in my hardened condition that is difficult...believe me.

    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  18. Gina B

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    ROFL! Thank you for that awesome reply! Now what I MEANT to type was Brother BILL! I am soooo sorry, and you are too kind! [​IMG]
    Gina
     
  19. Frogman

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    Your welcome and thank you for your kind words. I figured your post was to Bro. Bill, but I couldn't resist.

    They tell me I am like my grandpa in that he loved a good joke and was always laughing but then when it was time to be serious he was serious. I never met him, but I did know his brother. Both of them was deaf, you know how they showed the sign for a cup of coffee? Maybe I'll go over to the coffee shop and show everyone.

    {put you hand into a fist and spin it clock wise, it has to be clockwise, unless you are in Australia, now, you just said you want a cup of coffee}

    God Bless All
    Amen

    Bro. Dallas Eaton [​IMG] The no I'm not addicted poster child of the BB, I just don't have anything else to do this time of night, that's all. :D
     
  20. tyndale1946

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    I got a sign for you brethren... I know sign language too... Put your left hand straight elbow bent at a forty five degree angle palm down... Do the same with your right hand but put the palm up... Now flip your wrist... the right palm down and the left palm up... You just signed the word... DEAD!

    No where in the the Bible do I find and you who he unhardened who were hardened in trespasses and in sin... No it's is not there... You brethren know this by heart but I will say it anyway... And YOU hath he quickened who were DEAD in trespasses and in SIN!... There is a place for hardening if used in the right perspective if not it shows man controlling God and saving himself eternally... I'LL NEVER BUY THAT!... God has hardened my heart to the hardening doctrine of untruth... Some still want to hold onto Mt Siani and don't touch it lest ye die!... Brother Glen :eek:
     

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