Why do people ultimatively go to hell?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, Sep 26, 2006.

  1. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    Andrew Wommack said that nobody goes to hell because of his sins because God has dealt with all our sins. A person goes to hell for rejecting Jesus. Is this biblically correct? I mean this sounds like OSAS. But the bible mentions so many different sins and says that somebody who does these sins cannot get to heaven, which sense would it even make to mention them if sins were totally irrelevant and it's only about believing or not?
    I mean if you only go to hell for not accepting Jesus then this means once you have accepted him you can live like the devil and still get saved. :confused:
    This is confusing. On the one hand I think that Wommack is trying to do something good and to help people to get rid of this image of God which is scary, that God punishes people and that God sends diseases and tsunamis (which a lot of christians claim he does) but on the other hand I don't know if he might not also be wrong.
    For example Wommack said that the reason why God ordered the Israelites to kill other people in the old testament is that in the old testament nobody could be born again and this means that a person couldn't change and this means that these people had to be killed because they were so sinful and evil. But if you could not repent or turn around in old testament times then the whole ministry of John the baptists wouldn't have made any sense because sinful people wouldn't even have been able to repent. :confused:
    I don't know but somehow it simply doesn't fit together. Wommack says that God deals with us differently in the new covenant. As an example he used the story where Jesus' disciple ask him wether they shall send down fire from heaven upon those which rejected Jesus and Jesus rebuked them for this. But in the old testament Elijah did just this. Wommack said that if you want to do what Elijah did in the OT Jesus would rebuke you. This proves for him that God deals with us differently today. But what about Ananias and his wife for example? In this case God also showed a strong reaction and didn't just sit there and watch it.
    But Wommack is also right by saying that the way you percieve a person affects your relationship with this person. I have noticed this so many times. When I read something or hear something about God which scares me then immediately I feel distant to God and God suddenly becomes strange to me and I feel like I don't even know how he really is. This is indeed alienating. For example when you hear christians say that God punished New Orleans because the people there were into witchcraft and so on then this isn't a very pleasing thought because it makes God look so angry and revengeful and this is simply scary.
    But on the other hand I ask myself what if God simply also is angry and revengeful? Then it also doesn't help to simply deny those characteristics of God. :confused:
     
  2. El_Guero

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    They go to hell because they thought they were Christians and they were not.

    Any good discipleship would resolve their lack of a genuine salvation experience and fix that issue . . .

    Discipleship anyone?
     
  3. J.D.

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    Absolute popycock! People go to hell because they are sinners, rebels to the law of God.

    Ask yourself, is rejecting Christ a sin or not?

    This is the result of a synergists' desparate attempt to prove that Christ died for every person's sins without exception. Either he died for (1) All the sins of all people; (2) All the sins of some people, or (3) Some of the sins of all people.

    If it is (1), then all people are saved universally.

    If it is (2), then some people, we might call them "chosen", are completely secured by the atonement to their salvation, as says scripture, "who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect...it is God that justifies"

    If it is (3), then the atonement was not a final satisfaction of God's wrath (propitiation), and Christ failed in His earthly purpose as revealed in scripture ("for He shall saved His people from their sins"), and His blood was no different in effect than the blood of O.T. sacrifices, and Wommack is right.
     
    #3 J.D., Sep 26, 2006
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  4. webdog

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    They die a natural death because of sin...they go to hell because they did not have faith in Christ. Is rejecting Christ a sin? I say no, it's a decision leading to hell. Can you offer biblical proof it is?
     
  5. Pastor Larry

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    Yes, to not trust Christ is to disobey God since he commands faith. Romans 1:4; 2 Thess 1:7, among others refer to salvation as the "obedience of faith."

    Hell is an awful punishment for not having sinned. This idea is totally unbiblical with the added detriment of being ludicrous.

     
  6. webdog

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    Did I say that people go to hell who haven't sinned? I meant we all die physically because of sin. The Bible tells us it is appointed unto man ONCE to die, sin being the reason. The notion that sin takes someone to hell, and not the lack of faith in Christ is ludicrous and unbiblical.

    As a calvinist, how can someone be held accountalble for not following a "command"? It's harped on here that just because God commands something doesn't mean man can respond. If man cannot respond...it's not sin.

    If unbelief is a sin, please explain how Eve died AFTER eating of the fruit, and not when she believed the serpent over God. If unbelief were sin, she would have died the moment she put her faith in the serpent's words than God's. The Bible is clear that sin (death) took part once she ATE the fruit...not the moment she put the serpent's words over God's.
     
    #6 webdog, Sep 26, 2006
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  7. pinoybaptist

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    People go to hell because they have no Savior, not because they are sinners. The Bible says ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The difference is that there are sinners whom Christ redeemed because God wanted Christ to redeem them and so sent Christ to redeem them, and there are sinners whom God has left to their sins and the consequences of their sins.

    There is no cleft of the rock for them to stand in and be sheltered from the wrath of God.

    There is no Christ who stands between them and the wrath of an offended God.

    They have no Savior.
     
  8. EdSutton

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    Well we know what you are saying here; What does Scripture say?

    Outta' curiosity, are these verses found in the version of the Bible you use? :confused:

    Now without me sounding like a smart-___, or you sounding like somebody's wannabe theologian, the verses I quoted above say something about the basis of why someone "goes to hell"; what Christ accomplished and did or did not do, on the basis of his work on the cross: and how one is judged that faced this condemnation. And 'for free', one of the verses tells of an incident in the OT where the temporary satisfaction with a blood sacrifice was not the issue but whether or not one did "Look, and Live!"

    So tell me once again, where in these verses one reads that one's sins send him or her to hell, or where that fewer than all sins were died for, or that that alone equaled to all being saved? Since I seem to have missed that in these Scriptures.

    Ed
     
    #8 EdSutton, Sep 26, 2006
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  9. Pastor Larry

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    You are incorrect. Rev 20:11-15, Rev 21:8, and other passages clearly indicate that sin is the reason that people go to hell.

    Their lack of faith in Christ is what leaves them in their sin, rather than in Christ's righteousness whcih would take them to heaven.

    Sure it is. He is held accountable because he disobeyed.

    Because the sin was eating teh fruit. She died as a result of sin, not as a result of belief. Adam and Eve are a one-time deal that is usually not good to prove anything universal.
     
  10. webdog

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    I don't believe Rev. 20 is used as an argument for sin being the reason they are in hell. These people are already DEAD...their fate has been decided based on what they did with God's Son. Every man...righteous and unrighteous still have to give an account of what they did while in the body. "Rewards" will be given out to both. The passages you cite do not override John 3:18 and the like showing faith in Christ to be the determining factor of where man will spend eternity.
    I don't disagree...but where does their lack of faith in Christ lead?
    Disobedience can only be... if the option to obey exists. Since it is argued from the reformed stand point that the "non elect" cannot obey...they cannot be held accountable for disobedience. This is justice, what calvinism eliminates but God highlights. Romans 5 makes this clear.
    In one breath you state that unbelief is sin...but in this instance the action stemming from the unbelief was the sin...and not the unbelief itself. Which is it? If unbelief has always been sin, it most certainly would have been sin in this instance, even if you claim this to be a "one time deal", whatever that is. Sin is sin...has always been sin...and always will be.
     
  11. J.D.

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    Since I can't think of a kind way to replay to that statement, I'm just going to log off now. Bye!

    No, wait, I will say this - I guess there simply is no limit to where a synergist will go to justify his self righteoussnesses.

    Take that! Bye.
     
  12. webdog

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    That's not a shock :rolleyes:
    Deal with the topic and not your strawmen arguments.
    Bounce off me and stick to you like glue! Grow up...
     
  13. Andrew Walling

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    I need to point out a misrepresentation here. Man CAN and does respond but he only responds according to his selfish sin nature. Man does what he desires to do rather than obey God. His desire is that of the fleshly nature and he is at enmity with God.

    For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (Rom 8:6-8 NASB)

    "Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil." (Jer 13:23 NASB)


    Shall we use James' definition involving the consummation of "Faith".

    You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; (Jam 2:22 NASB)

    Faith without works is dead. The full consumation of faith (in Satan rather than God) occurred when the fruit was ate of.


    As for "propitiation", let's look at this carefully. Propitiation is not applied without faith ("through faith") in Jesus Christ. Without faith, a person's sin's remain and so does God's wrath.


    "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;" (Rom 3:23-25 NASB)

    The wages of sin is death. If you fail to realize this results in both spiritual and physical death, you will need to prove this from scripture.

    Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Rom 6:21-23 NASB)


    You're limiting the scope to scriptures that do not address this. This is either poor logic Ed or you are purposefully being deceitful. You cannot limit the scope of God's word to a very few scriptures. You must take into account all scriptures.
     
  14. webdog

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    I highlighted the key word that narrows to who you are arguing...and not all men. The text does not say "were born" to do evil. It was a result of their continued actions.

    Then you would have to agree that man is not born spiritually dead, what your theology claims to be true, as the WAGES of sin is what leads to death.
     
    #14 webdog, Sep 26, 2006
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  15. Dale McNamee

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    Why Do People Ultimately Go To Hell?

    Hello All,

    It's because of our sinful natures,which brings God's wrath and indignation down on us. All of humanity deserves hell as the wages of our sins.

    Ephesians 1:3-15 states why some will not go to hell:

    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

    9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

    10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    And, in Ephesians 2:1-10:

    1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;


    2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

    3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

    5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    The fact that anyone will be in heaven is all due to God's mercy & graciousness towards us in the person of His beloved Son,Jesus Christ. Nothing more,nothing less.

    In Christ,

    Dale McNamee
     
    #15 Dale McNamee, Sep 26, 2006
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  16. Andrew Walling

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    We received the sin nature from Adam. His sin/guilt has been imputed to us.

    For if by the transgression of the one (ADAM), death reigned through the one(ADAM), much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.(Rom 5:17-21 NASB)



    Not so. I'm curious as to what my theology is concerning end times. Could you please explain it to me? ;)
     
  17. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: That does not speak to the question at all. If that was true, only those that think they are going to heaven and are deceived would go to hell. Many know that they are bound for hell and openly admit that they have gave themselves over to the devil and his evil willingly.

    Any man that says that ‘ nobody goes to hell because of his sins because God has dealt with all our sins’ is deceived as to the truth. Scripture clearly states that “Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.” If any man finds his eternal home in hell, it will be a direct result of his sins, his willful acts of disobedience against known commandments of God.
     
  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    For if by the transgression of the one (ADAM), death reigned through the one(ADAM), much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.(Rom 5:17-21 NASB)


    HP: That is a clear misrepresentation of the truth and the text in question. There is not a solitary Scripture that states that Adam's sin or his guilt is imputed to us as a result of Adam’s sin.
     
  19. Andrew Walling

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    Neither is their a passage that explicitly states the doctrine of the Trinity, but the concept is there none the less. However, Romans 5: 12-19 is pretty plain. Perhaps you could exegete this for me.
     
  20. Pastor Larry

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    They are judged “according to their works.” That can only be sin.

    This is true, but not the question. The question was what causes people ultimately to go to hell. It is their sin that ultimately causes them to go there.

    No, not really, not according to Scripture. And irrelevant anyway since the option exists. The sinner simply does not want to take it because of his moral inability.

    That is certainly a logical approach to the topic, but not a biblical one. The Bible declares it differently.

    Actually, Calvinism highlights the justice of God. This has been shown over and over again.

    Romans 5 is clearly on my side, not yours. You need to reread it and do some study on it.

    If you go back and read what I said you will note that I pointed out the uniqueness of Adam and Eve. The sin for Adam and Eve was eating the fruit. That was the test of probation.

    No, incorrect. There are many ways to prove this wrong. In the OT, it was sin not to go to the temple to offer sacrifices. It is not sin now. In the OT, it was sin not to do the ritual purifications. It is not sin now. For unmarried people, it is sin to have sex. It is not sin for married people. So clearly, sin is not always the same. Your view is simplistic and does not take into account the full revelation of Scripture.
     

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