Why doesn't God stop rape or those who hurt the innocent?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Revmitchell, Aug 19, 2014.

  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
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    Exciting answers by Ravi Zacharias. He answers on the spot questions in a Q&A session at Arizona State University (Apologetics).

    Extract taken from DVD series "Yes, Your Question?"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEB6WH3I5Go
     
  2. Iconoclast

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    This is pure philosophy that he attempts to over ride scripture with, and seeks to dictate to God what conditions are permissible in his view. He usually does this and offers very little scripture.

    He also reveals a lack of trust in the fact that God oversees all things and is involved in every event as savior or judge.

    3 The eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.
     
  3. Winman

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    I agree with that speaker, love is greater than sovereignty. For untold ages God has always existed as the Trinity, and there has always been love between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. This was long before there was any creation to lord over.

    Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

    Love requires free choice, you cannot force another person to love you, indeed, it would be evil and immoral to force someone to love you. So God cannot make you a robot, it is against his very nature to do so. Unfortunately this same freedom that allows us to love God necessitates that any man can also choose to hate God and reject him. Sin cannot be avoided, it must needs be.

    Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

    God does not desire evil, God does not cause evil, but God must permit free will and this must necessarily present the possibility of rebellion and sin. It cannot be avoided, even by God.

    Now, when a person gets saved, they make a choice, and it is a permanent choice to be joined to God through his Spirit. We now are partakers of the divine nature. This divine nature cannot sin.

    1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

    1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    We still have our corruptible bodies that wars against the Spirit, so we can fall into sin on occasion now, but we can never truly fall away in unbelief, because we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us forever.

    When we receive our new bodies, we will not be pulled and tugged toward sin as we are now, so we will not sin.

    But this was a voluntary choice we made NOW in this life. So, God is not forcing us at all.

    Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

    You can choose NOW to be unjust and filthy forever, or you can choose NOW to be righteous and holy forever. The choice is yours.
     
    #3 Winman, Aug 19, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2014
  4. Revmitchell

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    So, in your mind, there are no other options. Since he holds to his position it can only be lack of trust in the fact that God oversees all things. There can, in no way, be any other reason he holds that position?

    Do I understand you correctly?
     
  5. Iconoclast

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    There can be several options, but the bottom line is God and His purposes come first and man is totally dependent upon God" revelation of that purpose. and is secondary.

    In scripture God's Glory and Holiness is primary over all His attributes and actions.

    Isa.6.... the heavenly host does not say ...love love love....He says Holy Holy Holy.

    3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
    4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

    5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

    For RZ to suggest love and mans will being "free" to love is pure philosophical musing and not declared in scripture.

    Those who hold "free will" as an idol will love this kind of lecture. He is a smart man, and a smooth speaker....but in all the times I have listened to ...HIM...I hear HIS IDEAS, AND PHILOSOPHY.....not enough about Jesus and scripture.

    When he makes light of God's providential control over all creation he then by default cannot hold the biblical position...he has already occupied that space with his philosophy.
     
  6. Revmitchell

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    Ok then how is it you made such a declaration about him and in fact his character?
     
  7. Iconoclast

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    Did you read my response or did our posts cross? I have heard him several times...years ago I ordered some of his messages....I was disappointed.

    I do not consider him an enemy, and many like to hear him lecture.

    I will go with those who are word centered....not full of carnal philosophy.

    When I hear him..he seems full of himself and not enough Jesus.

    I tell you what...pick out 10 of his messages randomly. Keep a notepad next to you. If he mentions Jesus or a bible verse...mark it....if he brings up himself, and philosophical ideas mark that down...see what comes out on top.
     
  8. Revmitchell

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    To respond to this post I would say that first, I have heard manyh of his messages and they are all Christ cnetered. Second, he was answering a question in that video not preaching a message.

    The fact that he does not agree with the reformed view of this issue does not automatically make him full of carnal philosophy.

    However, you have not really addressed my concern yet. I read all of your posts and you still have yet to answer for why you originally zeroed into only one option about your characterization of what he said and in the process left no room but to attack his intent and character.

    You did then admit there are more than one option for his motive behind what he said but never clarified why you originally attacked him that way. Can you not disagree without attacking ones character? Can you not disagree over doctrine without assuming the worst about them? Can you not disagree and assume he has done his level best, sought the face of God, and come to a different understanding than you.
     
  9. OldRegular

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    Haven't listened to the link and have no intention to do so.

    I suppose the question you present in the OP has been asked more than any other. However, I believe that somewhere I read the following:

    Romans 3:23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:


    So the answer is SIN!. Knowing that I still ask the question from time to time.
     
  10. quantumfaith

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    Great post Winman!!!
    I love and appreciate immensely the ministry of Ravi. I think his contributions to Christianity and the message of God and Gospel are immeasurable. Thank you Ravi, for your keen intellectual, spiritual and yes PHILOSOPHICAL contributions.
     
  11. go2church

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    I liked the answer.
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    Revmitchell

    Like I said some like him ,evidently you and QF like his smooth speaking and story telling. I have never heard any Christ centered message from him.
    The messages I heard were about him and how he gets a victory over some person he was speaking with....he "wins" a philosophical point.


    yes..it was a Q/A format...I have heard him speak

    not automatically but in fact...that is what he did. Do you deny this?

    This would be another thread, You and QF would like anything he speaks about...if he talked about a peanut and butter and jelly sandwich.

    That is your characterization of what I said. I made no attack on his person, just the content of his answer which is against biblical revelation.
    I have no need to attack "him'. Listen...I hope God uses him to influence sinners to think about the gospel...he might be one who plants, or waters.
    This answer was flat out wrong. You like the answer, that is why you posted it. I do not like the answer and have said so.

    I have...I think you have a jaundiced eye towards most of the Cals on BB. You are creating a side issue when none exists.
    Sure...recently I had slight disagreements with Reformed, and O.R....but because we agree on 95% of things it did not escalate. I am confident they are on the same page overall, and I am more likely to pause and reconsider something they offer because they are not looking to attack.

    With you I find you hot or cold...I agree or disagree, almost all or nothing, so we are just going to clash or lock horns a bit, at this point.

    Then again...with this answer RZ offered.....I do not believe FREE WILL exists, so when he makes that statement and then progresses to his idea of how love can only exist if man has free will is a non starter and to be rejected.

    The thing is....when anyone speaks of......LOVE......it is almost considered a sin to speak against anyone who uses the word LOVE....so if you do as I have...I must be the bad guy...or in your mind...THE arrogant Calvinist:thumbs:

    No one believes error...on purpose. I have come face to face with many sincere Mormons, cults, Catholics...I am sure they do their level best...but error is error.

    I am only one person...I have never said the world revolves around me...or I am the final word on anything have I?

    I will offer what I do based on who I am and whatever level of growth I am at now. If I met RZ...face to face...I would count him as a brother but I would pray for the ability and boldness to voice my concern to him directly.
     
    #12 Iconoclast, Aug 19, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2014
  13. quantumfaith

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    A peanut butter sandwich sounds delicious. Think I will go make one.
     
  14. Iconoclast

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    :laugh::laugh::wavey: .....no tulips in your garden though:wavey: I went back and added the jelly.
     
  15. quantumfaith

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    Jelly is good, but a bit more healthy to just have Natural PB. Nope you know I don't nurture T.U.L.I.P.'s but the tulip flower is a lovely as any other in God's creation.
     
  16. Zaac

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    I love Ravi and have told him so often. But I've also told him on several occasions that I can't listen to him. You can sound so intelligent that no one other than folks with Ph. Ds want to listen to you.:laugh:

    Dumb it down , please.:laugh:
     
  17. DHK

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    God oversees all things. He is both Saviour and judge. He is sovereign. As sovereign Lord he has allowed sin and its consequences to have their way in this world. He is not going to stop the Ebola plague nor the ISIS militants. Satan is the god of this world, and he has given this earth into his hand until he comes again.
    He is still Lord of lords and King of kings, but He will not exercise His dominion on this earth as King until he comes again.
     
  18. Iconoclast

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    He is very smart. I am not sure he can shift gears to bring it down.
    When someone can engage in these philosophies and worldview concepts it sort of becomes part of their fabric.

    He is not my cup of tea...so to speak, but he will reach people I could not reach so I would that God would use him.



    which part of Atlanta are you near? His ministry is down there ...right in Atlanta?
     
    #18 Iconoclast, Aug 19, 2014
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  19. Iconoclast

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    DHK

    .

    agreed:thumbsup:

    Satan can do nothing unless allowed to by God. Satan is a defeated foe and has no power over Christians.

    yes....agreed

    .

    disagree.....the Kingdom is growing and spreading worldwide from sea to sea as we speak.
    God controls all:
    21 The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

    2 Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?

    3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
     
    #19 Iconoclast, Aug 19, 2014
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  20. Revmitchell

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    Interesting, when you and I agree (and it is quite often) you sing my praises about being fair to reformed folks. Now that we disagree all of the sudden I am not.
     

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