Why have you forsaken me?? Why did Jesus ask that

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by TaliOrlando, Oct 18, 2006.

  1. TaliOrlando

    TaliOrlando
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    Why have you forsaken me?? Why did Jesus ask that ???
     
  2. James_Newman

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    I'd be interested in hearing the answer to that.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    Jesus experlienced all the torment and suffering due to each sin for ALL the sin committed by all mankind in all of time. He fully paid the "Certificate of debt" accumulated by all the sins of all mankind - and so now we go to Him to receive that saving substitutionary payment.

    In that act of Paying for the suffering owed - He was separated from the Father - as the sinner would be.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. tragic_pizza

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    Additionally, the quotation is from a prophetic Psalm (22).
     
  5. TaliOrlando

    TaliOrlando
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    Many feel that Jesus had to be seperated from God for 3 days and went to Hades and came back. Any input on this?? Some say that when he said it is finished that it was done. Also, if Jesus didnt go to Hades for 3 days and came back where was he for those days? Thanks
     
  6. rbell

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    TP's answer is best. Remember: particularly the religious leaders would know Psalm 22. Jesus just started the ball rolling for them...what an awesome prophecy to be fulfilled in their sight:

    Psalm 22

    1My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
    2O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
    3But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
    4Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
    5They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
    6But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
    7All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
    8He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
    9But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
    10I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
    11Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
    12Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
    13They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
    14I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
    15My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
    16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
    17I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
    18They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
    19But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
    20Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
    21Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
    22I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
    23Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
    24For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
    25My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
    26The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
    27All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
    28For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
    29All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
    30A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. 31They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.
     
  7. rbell

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    Remember: Jesus quoted this in Hebrew--the language of the scriptures and the religious--rather than Aramaic. I think this further emphasizes the prophetic nature of the statement.
     
  8. dispen4ever

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    Tali, the 'name it and claim it" crowd, the "kingdom now" proclaimers, the "word-faith" advocates, those like Kenneth Copeland, will tell you that Jesus went to Hell, where satan drug Him all over the place, kicked Him, beat Him into a bloody pulp, and so on. Copeland is a fine example of a nutcase. Read what the Bible says about Jesus during those three days, then tell the Copelands, the Sevelles, the Capps, the Roberts, the Meyers, and other distorters of the Gospel to get lost.
     
  9. TaliOrlando

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    Hello.. what do they base this on. I have heard something like that Jesus went into Hades and took the keys of hades or something....!!! Can you please explain where they are coming from. Thanks
     
  10. Agnus_Dei

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    I have to echo BobRyan’s post, in that the fellowship between Christ and His Father was broken as He bore the sin of the world, hence the phrase “My God..” Christ was also fulfilling prophecy as well. You’ll notice that a few verses later Christ refers to God as “Father” again, therefore the fellowship was broken only for a short period of time.
     
  11. dispen4ever

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    Tali, in response to your question:

    "Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross and took His spirit to the dark regions of hell (Kenneth Copeland, Holy Bible: Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition (Kenneth Copeland, Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland Ministries, 1991), 129.)"

    "He [Jesus] allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell....He allowed Himself to come under Satan's control...every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him....They tortured Him beyond anything anybody had ever conceived. For three days He suffered everything there is to suffer. (Kenneth Copeland, 'The Price of It All,' 3.)"

    "His emaciated, little wormy spirit is down in the bottom of that thing and the devil thinks He’s got Him destroyed. (Kenneth Copeland, Believer's Voice of Victory (television program), TBN, 21 April 1991.)"
     
  12. BobRyan

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    When He said "It IS finished" the payment for our debt of sin - was really provided - He really had "tasted the sufferings of death for every man" Heb 2.

    He then could rest in the tomb over the Sabbath hours - to rise again on the week-day-1. He was buried in SHEOL - the grave - the same place that David was buried according to Acts 2.

    Acts 2
    25 ""For David says of Him, " I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN.
    26 "THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE;
    27 BECAUSE
    YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY
    .
    28 "YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.'
    29 "" Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch
    David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

    30 ""And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE,
    31
    he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
    32 ""This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.



    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #12 BobRyan, Oct 18, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2006
  13. Taufgesinnter

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    "So as to feel the full weight of the consequences of sin, the Son of God would voluntarily allow His human nature to feel even the horror of separation from God"--St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco ("What Did Christ Pray About in the Garden of Gethsemane?" Living Orthodoxy, Vol. XV, No. 3 {May-June 1993}, p. 6 {emphasis added}).

    "Further, these words, My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken Me? He said as making our personality His own. For neither would God be regarded with us as His Father, unless one were to discriminate with subtle imaginings of the mind between that which is seen and that which is thought, nor was He ever forsaken by His Divinity: nay, it was we who were forsaken and disregarded. So that it was as appropriating our personality that He offered these prayers" (St. John of Damascus, "Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith," III.24, Patrologia Græca, Vol. XCIV, col. 1093A).

    "Christ's cry of Forsaken on the Cross was to teach us the insufficiency of the human nature without the Divine. Hence it is that the Lord Jesus Christ, our Head, representing all the members of His body in Himself and speaking for those whom He was redeeming in the punishment of the Cross, uttered that cry which He had once uttered in the Psalm, O God, My God, look upon Me; why hast Thou forsaken Me? That cry, dearly-beloved, is a lesson, not a complaint. For since in Christ there is one Person of God and man, and He could not have been forsaken by Him from Whom He could not be separated, it is on behalf of us, trembling and weak ones, that He asks why the flesh that is afraid to suffer has not been heard" (St. Leo the Great, "Homily," 67.7, A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. XII [Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1978], p. 179).
     
  14. Allan

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    Rbell and the other (can't remember the name) are right

    That fact that Jesus spoke this phrase has 2 powerful implication;

    1. All Jewish people most particuarlly the educated used the first sentence of a book, psalm ect. to identify (much like we have chapters and verse) where a particular passage was. When Jesus cried out (most likely yelled) many would hear it and know exactly what He was doing. Quoting a Davidic Psalsm but unbeknownst to them it was prophetic and descriptive of the death the Messiah would die. It showed the the depths of their sin that they did not see the messiah for who He really was, just like the Father they had cast aside by this time for the Law. It showed Gods love that He would still/did do all it took that the door would be open for any who would call on His name. It was also a decree of judgment agaist them as to their sin and rejection, that an innocent man would die for their rejection.

    2. Yes, Jesus was seperated from the Father but understand Hell is NOT a place Satan would ever PRETEND to want to look at, since it is a place for his judgment not a place he throws slumber parties or drags anyone into. Demons and Satan himself are terrified of that place. But I believe Christ did go into hell but not that place reserved for the damned. Jesus paid the price for sin IN His BODY, but His soul was not lost - He was God wrapped in flesh. Hell (some believe - as I) was actaully two compartments - but it was the same in being - a place awaiting judgment. The first compart was that of those who chose rebellion or their own way and hell is just a taste of what is to come. The second compartment was a place for those who were awaiting redemption - the prophesied Messiah, whom Abraham, Moses, Jacob and all the other believers who were awaiting that promised hope. This place is known as Abrahams bossom (Luk 16) or Paradise. Since sin can not enter Heaven and there had been no true and redeeming sacrifice given none could actually enter heaven yet since their sins were ONLY covered by the blood of animals that were SYBOLIC of the Lamb to come. So when Jesus went to hell it wasn't to be in torrment but preach to spirits in prison
    It does not say would not keep my soul from but not ABANDON it TO Hades. (leave it there), and He led captivity, captive. and Guess what:
    The gates of Hell (that place they were in) did not prevail (keep them there) against it. "IT" what - Christ taking souls out of Hell, just like He does with regard to building His church. He takes people who are destined for hell (and until saved technically IN hell) and HE brings them from there into Himself. What a Great God.

    And if that wasn't enough, He who laid down His life because no one could TAKE it, raised Himself from the Dead by the full authority/right the Father gave Him. So how did He come out of hell, guess who had the keys to open hell and let Him out. But how did He escape death, Guess who had the keys to open the door of death unto life eternal. He didn't fight Satan for the Keys they were His by right. And remember they are not literal keys but a metaphore concerning authority.

    After His resurrection this second compartment was destroyed since there was no longer a need it. The Lamb has come and sin IS redeemed, and the justifier of our Faith as imputed unto us who believe His very righteousness and given us a new nature that seeks after God.
     
    #14 Allan, Oct 20, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2006
  15. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Some people better not call themselves Christians - they shall suffer in hell for it!
     
  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    I think we have the answer in this verse of Ps22,
    "For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard."
    Jesus' cry of affliction to God was NOT despised nor abhorred. If heard Jesus was not forsaken by God; and heard, He was heard! Jesus 'opened' the Scriptures (as one poster has said) in confirmation of His Messiahship and prove of His Divinity. The Father did not hide his face from Christ; but when He cried unto Him, He heard, and acknowledged.
     
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Jesus ALWAYS referred to the Scriptures for 'proof' of His Divinity; this final cry of His was a final reference to the Scriptures, this time, AS proof, of His Divinity.
     
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Jesus conquered the devil on the cross. He before prophesied so and did what He had said He would. And it stands for the record, that satan, as Jesus died, fell from heaven like lightning, a conquered enemy - yea, THE vanquished adversary. His kingdom destroyed, the Kingdom of God and heaven, began ... THEN, as He died and gave over His spirit to God --- NEVER to the devil, you madman!
     
  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    The last two of these references may be admitted for 'orthodox' Christianity; the first obviously is that of pretentious 'orthodox' Roman Catholicism -- I at first thought I read a quote from Mrs EG White.
     
  20. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Quoting BR:
    "In that act of Paying for the suffering owed - He was separated from the Father - as the sinner would be."

    GE:
    I beg to differ! Jesus' cry from the cross does not mean He was separated from the Father; it implies the opposite as i've shown in posts before on this thread. To say Jesus was separated from the Father shows lack of insight. The Divine Trinity cannot be broken up or God is destructable like the devil is destructable. But 'in the act of paying for the suffering owed' by sinners, Jesus united with the Father in atoning suffering as no sinner nor mortal could. God acted in unison then as always He had and does.
     

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