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Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by Salty, Feb 24, 2013.
Does this man have a point? Interesting read
He commits the fallacy of over-generalization.
No doubt there are IFB churches like the one described in the article, I attended one like it during most of my youth. I agree with Don. Each IFB, indeed each Baptist church needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis.
I read the site in detail, and yes, the man has a valid reason for leaving IFB. For those who immediately complain about "broad brushing" maybe you haven't read his page about that topic. He is not bashing all IFB churches, but simply looking at the traditional beliefs held and preached and practiced in many, if not most, IFB churches and schools.
His arguments are very valid, well thought out, and based on scripture. Rather than demonize the man for bringing sin to light, IFB's would do well to show love and sympathy and search deeper to make sure they and their churches are not doing more harm than good.
If you read many of the comments from IFB on his articles, you'll see some of them automatically call him unsaved, backslidden, and toss anger and accusations at him instead of taking his words to heart. This, to me, shows the REAL IFBx attitude, and it's not godly. Getting defensive when sin is exposed is a sign of guilt as far as I'm concerned.
When you talk about the Independent Fundamental Baptist denomination (his words, not mine), rather than specifying who you're talking about, then you're committing the fallacy of over-generalization. It doesn't mean he's wrong about the particular church or churches of which he speaks; just means that he's identifying ALL independent fundamental baptists by talking about the denomination.
When we say "many" or even "most," how many are we talking about? I think we had a thread here some time back where we identified that there are at least 9,000 IFB churches; and possibly up to twice that number. So what constitutes "many" or "most"? Once we have that established, then we can actually start looking to see if many or most of them follow those same patterns.
Because until we've quantified "many" and "most", what we're really saying is "many of the ones I personally know"; which, honestly, is how many? 10? 12? 24? 120?
Interesting to a degree. He has sure spent a lot of time "exposing" all that he feels is wrong in IFB circles, 47 articles from my count. Though I can sympathize with him coming from an IFB background myself, it seems as though his time could be better spent.
All groups have their issues, we are human after all. I sense that he is most upset that IFB churches think they are right about everything, but don't we all have that problem?
Right! I have known, and known of, people who have left Missionary alliance to be Baptist, left IFB to be SBC, left SBC to be indpendent, Left SBC to joing Sovereign grace, SBCers who envy the Doctrinal unity of the PCA.
In most cases, though the grass looks greener, once they make the switch they find out those groups have issues too.
Just did a quick look at the site and I mostly agree with him. While many IFBers will rage at his use of the word Denomination IFB really is a loosely organized denomination despite their protests to the contrary. Particularly the side that descends from Jack Hyles and co.
I left a IFB church last year that was closely tied to the Hyles type of "ministry" after realizing the many problems with the group. The first thing that fractured my relationship with them was the realization that there is no repentance anywhere. It's never preached, it's never taught, it's never even said, and it's certainly never 'done'.
Of course every church even within a denomination is different so YMMV but that was my experience. I pray for them still but I will not associate with them anymore.
If what he says is true, then his family is mighty stupid for staying at a church like that. Does this make me reconsider the membership at the IFB church I am at? Not at all, as we have a school as well, and the church and the school is nothing like he described. I think he said he was at the church for 25 years. Now if he had said he was a member of 25 different IFB churches in 25 different areas, then I would say he has a case against all IFB churches. You can mention any church denomination and you can find people that had bad experiences in one of their church. No one is saying that stuff, if it happened like he said, is right. But no one in their right mind would condemn all IFB churches, unless they have an ax to grind, like I suspect some do here. Sheesh, over my life I have had bad experiences with more than one dentist, including one of Uncle Sam's, but I did not condemn all dentists. That would be ridiculous.
Since he was only a member of one IFB church in one area, then he is not qualified to condemn the entire denomination, and neither are you on his testimony. How many IfB churches have you been a member of? I have been a member of several, and none were like that. Period.
One other thing here: I googled "Why I left the _______________ church. Fill in the blank with any denomination and you will find disgruntled people that left denominations and say they were harmed by being in those denominations. Imagine that. One other thing: I found many for the SBC, but I will not post any of them as I refuse to castigate my brothers in Christ when I believe the majority of them are committed Christians. Don't get me wrong, we do need to police our denominations. If something starts a pattern in the IFB churches in our area that is unscriptural, or ungodly, like someone being abused, then we do need to talk about it as a church to make sure it doesn't happen in our church.
I find articles like this very frustrating for several reasons.
First he does not name names, why? Could it be he does not wish to be held accountable for his words? 2 Peter 2:10-12.
Secondly IFB is Independent Fundamental Baptist there is no denomination 1st Baptist in Hammond has no authority anywhere in Baptist networks, would any believe that Westboro Baptist church in Topeka, Kansas is a picture of any true Baptist church? I would hope not. This man obviously has been hurt spiritually and perhaps mentally but what happened to forgiveness was it never taught? Last I saw God said vengeance is mine I will repay. While he is complaining the church lives in the law and he wants grace he is denying them the same grace he says he is looking for.
Thirdly I would ask if his own zeal led to his interpretation of the events of his 25 years? I would challenge that it is unlikely that he heard dressing in a suit and tie means you are saved, it is unlikely that he heard long hair sends you to hell, it is unlikely that he heard that short dresses send you to hell it more likely that these things were preached on as hindrances to a spirit filled life and in his zeal he adopted them as proofs of salvation. Many myself included had to ask some hard questions at some point in our lives. Am I saved because of my dress, am I saved because of my hair, am I saved because of my bible, am I saved because of my interpretation of a passage of scripture obviously the answer is no. I am saved because Jesus took my sin to Calvary and died in my stead and I believed that He did that for me and it was accounted unto me as righteousness the moment I asked Christ to save me. I was saved before I knew how to dress, how to cut my hair and what bible to read and after I had been saved about 5 years I had to acknowledge that none of those things did not save me nor make me right or wrong in Christ eyes. Obviously Peter tells us that in dress we are to model a meek and quiet spirit. Meekness is strength of character under control.
I am still a member of an IFB church and have been since 1976 I do not live under law but honestly living under grace is much more difficult I believe because living under grace means I forgive you as Christ forgave me. If the gentleman in questions wants to model grace then he needs to forgive and get on with serving Christ and not living in the past. God will take care of Hammond in due time let us make sure we model Christ and not a church.
This guy hails from the 'High Desert' area of California (north of LA). Anyone there recognize the church he's describing?
Found a pic of him online, maybe someone knows him?
Websites like this are pure trash and ungodly
You're confusing forgiveness with restoration. Did you even read the site in detail? The man is trying to expose the problems that have existed, and still do exist in many IFB circles. There is no place on the site that I've read where he is trying to harbor unforgiveness and wreak revenge.
For the record there are other IFB colleges and churches besides the one in Hammond. I can think of several off the top of my head where family members and friends endured very similar abuse and received the same reaction I see on this thread.
Why do you seek to discredit this man? Why call him a liar? You know, if I went to a McDonalds and got bad food, and it happened in other towns at most of the other McDonald's restaurants I visited, and friends and family members of mine all had bad experiences at McDonalds, I wouldn't need to visit every single one of the chain's restaurants to know there's a problem.
They are serving the same food. Maybe the cooks are different and the food is cooked a little differently, but they are serving the same stuff. Same with IFB.
The man had a bad experience, people he knows had bad experiences, and he's left IFB. He's pointing out the faults and tendencies that attract abuse to warn others of what can, and has happened.
Strikes me as similar to other hack websites started by people disgruntled over their particular denominations.
No, I do not attend an IFB church.
My apologies I assumed it was Hammond based on one of the posts beneath his article. None the less my comments still stand be up front and say what you will against the pastor (two or three witnesses are required I believe). The doctrines he chooses should be supported by scripture not experience. And I would be willing to wager there is more to this whole diatribe than he is sharing. Are there bad pastors of course, are their churches that are not what they should be, absolutely. Since when are we told in scripture to attack churches that preach the gospel and are seeing people saved. While we are to hold false doctrine up for examination preferences are not false doctrine. If you do not like a churches stand and consider them to stringent then leave but don't leave and then bad them. By the way I never called this individual a liar, nor did I attempt to discredit him that is what you read into my statments. I might add that is probably how this gentleman got to the point of disillusion and anger he read to much into what he heard and read. MPO only.
Once again IBF is not a denomination please quit trying to make it one and do not lump all IBF churches into the same mold. It is wrong and when you do it you are wrong. Judge each IBF church separately and each pastor stands or falls to his own master. Once again I apologize for making the assuption that the church was located Hammond, I know better than to do that stuff.
As Christians, part of being a "light" is to expose darkness We can't sweep sin under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist in the church. We can't ignore the walking wounded by sending them away with meaningless phrases or accusations of bitterness and revenge when they need love and compassion and healing. What kind of Christianity is that?
By the way, when personal preferences are preached as doctrine, as GOD's way, yes, that's false doctrine. It is not man's job to place extra-scriptural standards on people. When women are told they are sinning for wearing pants, that's false doctrine and man's opinion.
No one's arguing that bad IFB churches don't exist; they do. The argument comes when someone indiscriminately uses "IFB denomination" or "all IFB" or even "most" or "many." That's like saying all churches affiliated with the SBC denomination are liberal; or that most Baptist churches are evangelical; or many Baptists get drunk and dance (that last one just might be true....). Or many/most people who own a gun are religious zealots. It's a logical fallacy.
If we're going to use language that quantifies things, then let's actually quantify things. In the meantime, YES, when we find a pastor or congregation or entire church that's allowing sin, then we have a duty and responsibility to protect others and call out that pastor or congregation or entire church--just like Paul did to Corinth. But as someone else has already said: don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Yes, in the sense that there are decent IFB churches out there.
But many people on this very site testify of having bad experiences with IFB churches being backward, uneducated, pharisaical, etc...
While you call for us NOT to overgeneralize, it would give you credence if you would add, "But I will say that there sure are a LOT of these type churches who bear the title IFB out there."