Why I am KJV Only

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Jim Ward, Mar 27, 2004.

  1. Jim Ward

    Jim Ward
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    I have been asked countless times:

    "Why are you KJV only?"
    "What?s wrong with the modern versions?"
    "Isn?t one Bible version as good as another?"


    I intend through this written testimony to answer these three questions, and hopefully any others the reader may have regarding why the KJV is the inspired, preserved, perfect word of God for us in English. I will seek to answer mainly the question as to why I am KJV only, and through this, also answer the other two questions posted above.


    A little background:

    Allow me to first share a bit of my history with you, to prove that there is no preconceived bias as to why I am KJV only.

    I was raised in the Churches of Christ, in Westminster and Broomfield, Colorado. I don't remember much about these early days. One memory that I do have is of walking to the front of the Church to receive a bible as a reward for bringing a bunch of kids to Vacation Bible School. This Bible was a KJV. For many years this was the only Bible I read, as it was "my Bible", something I had earned. I am sure that had it been an ASV I would have been just as proud of it.

    Through my teen years I attended and visited several churches, only one of which was KJV only, and that visit was with family who used to attend that Church but didn't attend anywhere at that time. During this time I heard several different versions referred to and never once thought that they were not also the Word of God. It was also during this time that I received Jesus as my Saviour.

    Through my early adult years I was involved in the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement, and had heard many references to the Amplified Bible.
    I was also ecumenical at this time, and was a strong supporter of such ministries and ministers as:

    Billy Graham
    Charles Stanley
    Marilyn Hickey
    Kenneth Hagin
    Kenneth Copeland
    CRI
    Charles Blair
    Oral Roberts
    Richard Roberts
    The Power Team
    TBN

    Being that I believed each one of these people was called of God, I also believed that, when they quoted from various versions of the Bible, they were quoting from the word of God, be it the KJV, NIV, Amplified, NKJV and so forth. I clearly was an MVer and would have argued against anyone who tried to tell me that the word of God was limited to just one English version for those of us in the English, or one textual line. I also remember coming across the book "New Age Bible Versions" by Gail Riplinger. I thumbed through the book, decided that Mrs. Riplinger had been smoking something wacky and dismissed it, because of it?s bias towards the KJV.

    It was during a Bible study that I was conducting that caused me to stop and take a look at the issue of the Bible versions. I had read a passage in the NKJV that had a footnote for Mark 16:9-20. The footnote said something to the effect that "The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20", to which I made a comment in favor of the footnote. I made the comment without even investigating this longer ending of Marks Gospel. I began to look at this verse in some of the other versions I had:

    KJV
    NIV
    LB
    AB
    RSV
    NWT

    I noticed that every version except the KJV had a footnote regarding the longer ending to Marks Gospel not being in the earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses. This caused me to question why, and I began to wonder if this longer ending was Scripture, or wasn't it.

    The beginning of the search for truth:

    I began my search still holding to the idea that every Bible version I owned was the word of God. I had no doubt about that at all. I went and borrowed a copy of the Eight-Translation New Testament by Tyndale House Publishers, Inc. I borrowed this so I could compare several versions at one time. The eight versions in this volume are:

    KJV
    LB
    PME
    RSV
    TEV
    NIV
    JB
    NEB

    As I went through these page by page I noticed different readings, footnotes regarding various verses and passages of Scripture and things that just did not line up. I decided the best thing to do was apply James 1:5-8 to my study.

    "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." (James 1:5-8)

    Yes I wanted wisdom from God to know for sure if all these versions were the word of God or not. As much as I would love to say I had my answer overnight, I didn't. It took time and effort. In fact, I'm not 100% sure that I wanted a different conclusion then the one I had. In fact, I actually put of my study of this issue for a few years and continued in my Ecumenical MVer ways.


    The changes begin:

    During my late 20's while attending a Church of God (Cleveland, TN) Church, I began to have a serious problem with the Pentecostal/Charismatic doctrine. Much of what I was being taught by those in the Word Faith movement wasn't working and it wasn't because of a lack of faith on my part.
    I slowly began to realize how much of a fraud this movement was, and what a danger it presented. I also had a problem with being told by several of the Elders at Church that salvation could be lost. I left there and joined a Southern Baptist Church and promptly started using mainly the NIV. I left the SBC due to personal reasons and went back to the Church of God (Cleveland, TN). It was here where I began to have problems with the following areas, along with those that I was having problems with before:

    Salvation can be lost
    Asking Jesus into your heart to be saved
    Women Pastors
    Being ecumenical
    Tongues
    Healings


    I decided at this point, to do a study of each of the above to determine once and for all if they were Scriptural or not. I will briefly post my findings for each of the above.


    Salvation can be lost:

    I started my studies dealing with the issue of the eternal security of the believer. There was a time where I did believe that a believer could lose their salvation, but then accepted the teaching that salvation couldn?t be given up when I got saved. The following are a couple of the passages that helped convinced me that salvation could not be lost and that once saved, a Christian is always saved.

    John 3:16
    Ephesians 2:8-9
    1 John 5:13
    Titus 3:5


    Asking Jesus into your heart:

    This issue was easy to resolve based on the extreme lack of Scriptural support for this view. Seeing the lack of support I was able to conclude that this is one of the false gospels that the Apostle Paul warned the Galatians about.

    Women Pastors:

    This was another issue that was easy to resolve. Knowing that the Greek words for "Elder", "Pastor" and "Bishop" are all used to denote the office of Pastor. All I had to do was read 1 Timothy 3:1-7 where it is clear from verses 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 and 7 that this is an office that God has ordained be filled by a man.


    Ecumenicalism:

    This issue was harder to resolve and finally understand. I wanted to believe that it was ok to worship with, and fellowship with the likes of Kenneth Copeland, Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, E.V. Hill, Promise Keepers and so forth. Yet it was obvious that there were (and are) many doctrinal differences between the ecumenical groups. Could I resolve being ecumenical with Scripture? I could not. In fact, I found that Scripture (see Romans 16:17-18) actually commanded against ecumenicalism.


    Tongues and Healings:

    I place these two together because they are so closely tied into the Pentecostal/Charismatic movements that I was involved with. They all taught that every believer should speak in tongues and that it's always Gods will to heal. Never having "spoken" in tongues, nor seen a real healing, I really had to wonder how correct it was to claim that these were still for today. When I read 1 Corinthians 14 and compared that with today?s tongues movement, I had to conclude that according to the word of God, the tongues movement is false. I also didn't see where it was right to claim that God wants us to walk in perfect health. After all, Paul had his thorn in the flesh. I do believe that God can heal if he wants to, I just reject today?s tongues and healing movement.


    The Search Comes To An End:

    Once I was able to conclude from Scripture that the above beliefs were wrong, I next focused on the Bible version issue. I was bothered when I would read passages such as Mark 16:9-20 in versions such as the NIV and would read the footnote that cast doubt on the authenticity of that passage. I had the same feeling with 1 John 5:7 and Acts 8:37 to name two others. I remember asking myself "are these verses a part of the inspired canon or not?" I noticed that the KJV had these verses without the doubt casting footnotes, while the modern version either had them, with the doubt causing footnotes, or did not include them in their text at all. At this point Revelation 22:18-19, Proverbs 30:6, and Psalm 12:6-7 began to mean a lot to me and became my key verses in this study.

    "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:18-19 KJV)

    "Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." (Proverbs 30:6 KJV)

    "The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." (Psalm 12:6-7 KJV)

    As we see, we have the command in Revelation to not add to the word of God, nor take away from it. In Proverbs we are told that if we add to God's word, he will reprove us and we will be found to be a liar. Psalms tells us that the words of God are pure and that God will keep and preserve them among the generations forever.

    Where is the word of God that has been preserved among the generations forever, not added to, nor taken away from? This was the question I asked myself, and set out to seek Almighty God for the answer. I began to compare the Bibles I had and soon realized that they were not all saying the same thing. While they all seemed to have the basics, there was the matter of the verses that were not in the modern versions, and the verses that were in them, but had the doubt causing footnotes. There was also the few verses that read differently.

    A few examples are:

    Psalm 12:7 "Thou shalt keep them, O Lord, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever." (KJV)

    "Do thou, O Lord, protect us, guard us ever from this generation." (RSV)

    "Thou, O Jehovah, dost preserve them, Thou keepest us from this generation to the age." (YLT)

    "O LORD, you will keep us safe and protect us from such people forever." (NIV)

    It doesn?t take a rocket scientist to see the differences here. Either God is going to preserve His words among the generations forever as the KJV says, or he is going to preserve a people among the generations forever. I have yet to see anyone who was alive and has been preserved from the time of this Psalm, so I can safely conclude that the KJV rendering here is correct.

    Daniel 3:25

    "He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." (KJV)

    "He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the aspect of the fourth is like a son of the gods." (ASV)

    'He said, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods."' (NIV)

    What did the King see? Did he see Jesus in the fire as the KJV reads or a son of one of the false gods of his day? We find our answer in the verses following verse 25. Verse 26: "servants of the most high God", verse 28 "Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego", verse 29 "Therefore I make a decree, That every people, nation, and language, which speak any thing amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made a dunghill: because there is no other God that can deliver after this sort." These 3 verses make it clear that the King say Jesus, the Son of God.

    Mark 1:2-3

    "As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight." (KJV)


    "It is written in Isaiah the prophet: 'I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way' ? 'a voice of one calling in the desert, Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.'" (NIV)

    'As it is written in Isaiah the prophet, "Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, who shall prepare thy way; the voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight--" (RSV)

    Well, it is what was written in the prophets or the prophet? Malachi 3:1 and Isaiah 40:3 each answer this verse and both conclude that the NIV and RSV are only ½ right here and that the KJV rendering is in fact 100% correct.

    John 3:16

    "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (KJV)

    "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." (RSV)

    "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (NIV)

    Did God give his one and only Son, or his only begotten Son? Well, knowing that I am a son of God, I know he did not give his one and only Son, so again I was able to conclude that the KJV rendering is correct.

    Acts 8:37

    "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (KJV)

    " " (NIV)

    " " (RSV)

    This verse brings us face to face with the warnings we read above about adding to and taking away from God?s word. Either this verse is inspired of God or it isn't. If it isn?t then we have to rightly conclude that the KJV (and any other version that includes this verse in it's text) are not the word of God because they have been added to, and the translators are liars. If this verse is inspired of God and is a part of the canon then every version that has relegated it to a footnote, or just left it completely out is 100% guilty of taking away from the word of God and thus ceases to be the word of God. It is one or the other. I cannot believe that Philip would baptize the eunuch without first making sure he was a believer. I honestly believe that God inspired this verse and included it in the canon as an instruction as to who is the proper person to be baptized. This verse also helps to dispel the myth of infant baptism.


    Acts 24:7

    "But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands" (KJV)

    " " (RSV)

    " " (NIV)

    The same warnings about adding to and taking away from the word of God apply here also. Either this verse as it is in the KJV is inspired and preserved of God, or it is not. One of the factors that helps lead to me believe that is inspired is the fact the NIV and RSV, while omitting this verse, manage to keep using the same verse divisions as the KJV. Which happens to be a problem with all the verses that the NIV, RSV and so forth do not have in their text.


    Romans 8:1

    "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (KJV)

    "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (RSV)

    "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (NIV)

    The question here is, is "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" inspired of God or not? If it is, then the RSV and the NIV are guilty of being based on texts that have taken away from the word of God. If it?s not, then the KJV is guilty of being based on a text that added to the word of God.

    There is also a doctrinal implication here. The RSV and NIV (along with the ASV, LB, NAS, NWT, TEV, PME and so forth) make it appear that once a believer is saved they can live however they want because they will not have to worry about any condemnation. However, the KJV does in fact make this warning. The Bible also makes it clear that we are to obey what Jesus commanded and that we are to strive for perfection. In so doing, we will be walking after the Spirit and not the flesh and not have to worry about coming into condemnation.


    I could go on with several more examples (1 John 5:7, 1 Corinthians 1:18, 2 Corinthians 2:17, Galatians 3:1, Ephesians 4:6, 1 Timothy 6:5, 2 Timothy 2:15, 1 Peter 2:2 among others) but I feel that these few should be more then enough to prove to any honest seeker of truth that the claim that "all Bibles say the same thing" is utterly false and very misleading.

    When I was confronted with these examples and the evidence that I provided here, I was forced to make a choice. After seeking God and asking Him for wisdom, I felt that He was leading me to the KJV. I admit I resisted at first, but the more I sought Him, the more I examined the evidence, the more I realized that all the Bibles in my bookshelf, all the Bibles on my desk, were not all the inspired, preserved, complete and perfect word of God. I finally realized that this belief (and the belief that every valid version is the word of God) is nothing more than a man made myth, created by those who sought to peddle their corrupt versions of the word of God. This is fully evidenced by the fact that every time a new version comes out, it is supposed to be so much better, more accurate then anything else on the market. Yet, you will still see the older version on the shelves being sold. The love of money is the only reason why this can be.

    Over the past few years I have been involved in the Bible version debate, both on-line and in person. There are questions I have, that I have asked, and that I have seen others ask those who defend the modern versions and the myth thereof. So far, I have not seen an answer to many of these questions, and the few I have seen have been vague at best. Usually the defender of the modern version myth will either ask a question in reply, rather then answer the question, or will ignore them flat out. I offer some of these questions for you to look over. Perhaps you are a believer that the KJV is the word of God, and the modern versions are not, I would ask that you ask these questions to those whom you know who support the modern versions. Perhaps you support the modern versions, to you I ask that you carefully read over these questions, and see if you can answer them. You may always e-mail the author if you want to send in your answers or discuss any of the questions, or points in this testimony.


    1) Do you believe that Jesus is from ancient times and not everlasting?

    2) Do you believe that God has only one son?

    3) Do you believe that an eternal God can be begotten?

    4) Do you believe that one can be baptized without faith in Jesus?

    5) Do you believe that Gods word will contradict itself? (this is for those who claim that the mv's of their choice and the KJV are all the word of God)

    6) Where can I find the inspired, preserved perfect words of God that were not added to or taken away from?

    7) What's more important in translating the Bible, what a translator THINKS were the thoughts of the Bible writers, or the words that God inspired and preserved?

    8) Where is the Bible command to only have a 66-book canon?

    9) Where does the Bible tells us we will have even one translation in English?

    10) Where does the Bible tell us to use the NIV, NKJV, NAS, RSV, TNIV, NWT, TEV, ESV (et al)?

    11) Where does the Bible say we need Gods word in a version that our carnal and finite minds can understand it?

    12) If a version is based on a text that is guilty of adding to the inspired text, or taking away from it, is that version still the inspired, preserved word of God and something that we should use today?

    13) Where is your support for a 39 book Old Testament and a 27 book New Testament?

    14) If the word of God is added to, is it still the inspired, complete, perfect preserved word of God?

    15) If the word of God is taken way from, is it still the inspired, complete, perfect, preserved word of God?

    16) Where did God promise to preserve His word in conflicting versions of His word?


    Final Thought

    Sitting here typing this up has been in several ways a heart wrenching time, while yet being a joyous and thankful time. It can be hard to sit and reflect on, and share past mistakes, yet hiding them is far worse. It is also joyful to look back where you have been and where you are now and realize that you are where you are because the Lord has brought you here. I am thankful that he has allowed me to experience all that I have, and that He has never forsaken me. I rejoice that he answered my prayers and has led me into His truth. I often wish it would have been an instantaneous event, but I know that He led me in a manner that would cause me to "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV), in order to share what I have learned with others. This testimony is one small way of doing that. It is my prayer and hope that you have been blessed by reading what has come straight from my heart, to you.


    In His Service,
    Jim Ward


    (Note from JMW... The above is a testimony written and based upon a conviction given by God through the Holy Spirit as he was sought for truth, those seeking to sway or change my belief are not battling against me, but against Almighty God, the creator of heaven and earth as it was and it is he who has led me to and given me the conviction I have regarding His word.)
     
  2. Phillip

    Phillip
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    This is a very interesting testimony Jim and I do appreciate your candor in posting it. I have not completely read it, but scanned to the bottom and let me point out something. I never really thought of it this way before, but our pastor asked us how often we heard somebody say, well the Holy Spirit showed it to me this way, or God told me this is what I should do, or The Holy SPirit answered my question and here is the answer?

    This is all fine and dandy, but according to Joseph Smith, an angel of the Lord's showed him where the new plates were buried for the 3rd testament of Jesus Christ.

    If you make a statement that the Holy Spirit showed this to you, then "YOUR WORD BECOMES INSPIRED". There is only one little problem with this, "Only the Bible is inspired." Since, today your words cannot be inspired, then you really should not say, the Holy Spirit showed me this, because if that were the case, then at least 100% of Christians who say that are either "inspired by God" or they are WRONG, when they say it. Does that make sense?

    It is not a personal attack, far from it. I am simply telling you that because you say that, as part of your testamony, the Holy Spirit showed this to you, I automatically put up my "warning" antennas and go, Ooooops, here is a modern day revelation. This is the reason I do have problems with TV evangelists. How many of them say: The Holy Spirit tells me that there is a person out there with a bad back, I'm going to pray for you right now, blah blah blah. See my point?

    I honestly do not mean so be rude here, just making an observation on the finality of your testimony. [​IMG]
     
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Thank you for your testimony Brother Jim Ward.

    Jim Ward: "I remember asking myself "are these verses
    a part of the inspired canon or not?" I noticed that
    the KJV had these verses without the doubt casting footnotes, ... "

    IMHO you made an error at this point.
    You have assumed that footnotes cast doubt.
    Actually they clariy. Nearly all the things you
    bring up are clarified by the footnotes, if you have
    several translations (and a magnifing glass ;) )

    Jim Ward: "These 3 verses make it clear that the King
    say Jesus, the Son of God."

    I find it rather amazing that Neb, a pagan King/god
    knew this information 600 years before God's own
    knew it.

    Jim Ward: "5) Do you believe that Gods word will contradict itself?"

    I seem to answer this about twice a week for the last two years.
    Nevertheless, i shall answer it again as some may not have
    read the aver 800 screens the average day adds in this Forum.
    No, I do not believe that God's word will contradict itself.
    I believe that each English Language language is individually
    and collectively God's Written Word: the Holy Bible.
    If there appears to be a contradiction, it is NOT God's fault
    but the fault of the reader who has somehow injected
    some error in their understanding. BTW, I do NOT appreciate
    people telling me that my NIV Bible is wrong. I do know
    logically that is their logical shortcoming (sin?) not
    God's, not mine, but i'm only human, so somtimes have to
    put my old man's temper under control.

    I believe we should have as an axiom: there is no contradction
    in the different parts of God's Written Word: the Holy Bible.
    If it appears there might be a contradiction we should
    lean on holy people and the Holy Spirt to help us see how
    what we see as an error NEVER IS AN ERROR.

    Here is my experience studying God's Written Wrold for 52 years:

    Jim Ward: "16) Where did God promise to preserve His word in conflicting versions of His word?"

    This is NOT a good question. The question is invalid therefore
    nobody can possibly have a good answer for it. Here are the
    assumptions one has to make to ask the question:

    1. one Bible conflicts with another
    2. God probably needs you to help Him
    3. /left to the student as an exercise/

    A better set of axioms:

    1. God's Bible is found in each English Language
    translation of repute individually and collectively
    2. I should be honored that God lets me appear to help Him
    (obviously HE doesn't need my help, but i need His).

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    This is a very interesting testimony Jim and I do appreciate your candor in posting it. I have not completely read it, but scanned to the bottom and let me point out something. I never really thought of it this way before, but our pastor asked us how often we heard somebody say, well the Holy Spirit showed it to me this way, or God told me this is what I should do, or The Holy SPirit answered my question and here is the answer?

    This is all fine and dandy, but according to Joseph Smith, an angel of the Lord's showed him where the new plates were buried for the 3rd testament of Jesus Christ.

    If you make a statement that the Holy Spirit showed this to you, then "YOUR WORD BECOMES INSPIRED". There is only one little problem with this, "Only the Bible is inspired." Since, today your words cannot be inspired, then you really should not say, the Holy Spirit showed me this, because if that were the case, then at least 100% of Christians who say that are either "inspired by God" or they are WRONG, when they say it. Does that make sense?

    It is not a personal attack, far from it. I am simply telling you that because you say that, as part of your testamony, the Holy Spirit showed this to you, I automatically put up my "warning" antennas and go, Ooooops, here is a modern day revelation. This is the reason I do have problems with TV evangelists. How many of them say: The Holy Spirit tells me that there is a person out there with a bad back, I'm going to pray for you right now, blah blah blah. See my point?

    I honestly do not mean so be rude here, just making an observation on the finality of your testimony. [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Brother Phillip,
    i've heard this so much i even have a
    canned reply:

    ---------------
    I believe the Bible is the
    inerrant written words of God.
    It is nonsense for me to
    believe that my understanding
    of all the Bible is inerrant.

    You believe your Bible is the
    inerrant written words of God.
    It is nonsense for me to
    believe that your understanding
    of all your Bible is inerrant.


    Surely i have respect enough for my
    Brother in Christ that i will allow you your
    opinion. If further you believe your
    opinion, i will allow that also.
    But i will receive the same consideration
    for my opinion/belief.

    I am speaking of my opinion of what the Bible
    said versus your opinion of what the Bible said.
    What the Bible said is true, what
    the Bible means is your opinion or
    is my opinion.
    Don't get your opinion of what the Bible meant
    get confused with what the Bible said.
    ---------------

    Of course, i admit, i usually use this on
    my favorite topic: the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. robycop3

    robycop3
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    ......WHY I AM NOT KJVO......

    In July, 1982, I'd been saved less than 3 years. I went with Dad to Cincinnati, just to have a mini-vacation, a father-son thing. While I went to Christ Hospital to see a few friends from my football days, Dad walked to this little park & sat down to rest from the heat & to read his Bible. While reading, three teenagers passed by & saw him reading a Bible & asked him if he knew the Bible well. Dad said he was a Christian & read it a lot; the teens said, "tell us more" while one of 'em went to get some friends. Soon, Dad was teaching an impromptu Bible class to about ten teens. When he finished, he started back to his truck, & I joined him about 4 blocks from it.
    Soon a group of 5 men approached us & asked Dad what Bible he'd been teaching those teens from, & Dad showed them the NASB he generally carries. All these men reacted with seeming revulsion; one of'em said, "You need your *** kicked for using that devil's-edition Bible instead of the King James", & Dad said, "if you feel froggy, just leap". (I'm 6'2", 240 LB, & Dad is larger than I.) We were at his truck, & I picked up two ball bats from the bed & gave Dad one. Dad said, "If you wanna have a Christian discussion, fine, and if you wanna have a donnybrook, fine". The men walked briskly away, one of'em calling us some quite un-Christian names. We never found out who they were or what their problem was.

    Dad said he'd heard of "King-James-Onlyism", but didn't know much about it, & I said it's high time we were finding out. Upon returning home, I enlisted the help of my wife and two friends & we bagan finding out all we could about KJVO.(To keep my friends from being biased, I did NOT tell'em about my & Dad's experience till much later in our work.) At that time, we didn't have the books & articles at out fingertips as we now have on the Net, so our work was done at two public libraries & at the Marshall University Library. It took us over two years of almost daily research to finish.(In the meantime my oldest son was born!)

    We tried to keep as unbiased a view as possible, praying for God to guide our studies.

    What we found out is that KJVO has absolutely NO supporting evidence, Scriptural or historical, & that it's totally man-made. I've read virtually every work by virtually every published KJVO author, followed the bunny trails of their assertions to their sources, and found every one of them to be either opinion, guesswork, or flat-out LIES. There's simply NOTHING to support the myth that"the KJV is the only valid English Bible translation".

    I've found out that the KJVO myth is fueled by a great double standard-"IT'S WRONG IN THE MODERN VERSIONS, BUT OK IN THE KJV." This is easily seen from the KJVOs' posts on this very board.

    I have honestly tried hard to find ANYTHING that would lend a little credence to the KJVO myth. It simply doesn't exist.

    It would be so much simpler if KJVOism were valid. We could all use one BV & live happily ever after. But from what we know, this would be living a lie. God is NOT LIMITED in how He can present/provide His word to us.

    As for your questions, Jim, I've answered them before on other boards, but I'll do it again on THIS board, just to show you & the other readers that, unlike the KJVOs, I'm not afraid to answer questions truthfully and directly.See my next post.
     
  6. Pastor KevinR

    Pastor KevinR
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    Wow Roby, I've never heard of KJVO's like that, wanting to be violent because your Dad used the NASV!
    I too am a former KJVO-I won't get into the academic reasons, as others have dealt with over and over. For me, their was an emotional aspect. For example; my church in Louisville split because the Asc Pastor was a Ruckmanite, in fact Ruckman wrote an article praising this man's divisiveness, and my Pastor, who had and has a "name" amongst IFB's was called all kind of names... [​IMG]
    Also the KJVO's I know, many (not all) are just plain mean and are characterized by oneupmanship and arrogance. Many of them I used to know when I lived in Kentucky also were prejudiced against Blacks, and had an aura of superiority about the White race, and the White language! what I mean is the language and nation the KJV came from: England. It was a weird form of British Israelism (my own observation and opinion). This of course does not encompass all KJVO's, because they are some who are Black, Hispanic, etc.
    I respect folks and understand where they come from if they only want to use the KJV, but when they cross the line is when they take on some of the aforementioned characteristics that the very KJV Bible speaks against! Pro 6:19 comes to mind, bearing false witness, and sowing discord. sad indeed.
    I could continue but I don't want to bore you all!
    Bro Kevin
     
  7. robycop3

    robycop3
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    Jim Ward's questions, & my answers:

    1) Do you believe that Jesus is from ancient times and not everlasting?

    He was, is, & always will be.
    John 8:58, NKJV-Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
    Hebrews 13:8, NKJV-Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

    2) Do you believe that God has only one son?
    God has many sons by adoption, but only one BEGOTTEN Son.
    Romans 8:14-For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

    I believe you're familiar w/John 3:16, so I won't paste it.

    3) Do you believe that an eternal God can be begotten?
    Yes, Scripture says so. If you believe Jesus is God, He says so Himself.(John 3:16, John 1:18, John 3:18, 1 John 4:9 among others)

    4) Do you believe that one can be baptized without faith in Jesus?

    Yes, but all that person will be is a wet sinner.

    5) Do you believe that Gods word will contradict itself? (this is for those who claim that the mv's of their choice and the KJV are all the word of God)

    No, even though it may appear to do so. We explain the differences among the Gospels and among Samuel, Kings, & Chronicles where they give different accounts of the same events within the same Bible version by saying they each were written by different people who may or may not have witnessed those same events more readily than another writer. We MUST apply that same explanation to the differences between BVs and between the various mss or we're using a double standard.

    6) Where can I find the inspired, preserved perfect words of God that were not added to or taken away from?

    In any valid Bible.

    7) What's more important in translating the Bible, what a translator THINKS were the thoughts of the Bible writers, or the words that God inspired and preserved?

    The words themselves, as much as they can be translated into the target language.

    8) Where is the Bible command to only have a 66-book canon?

    Right after the verse which says, "Thou shalt use the KJV only". Feel free to add to the canon if you wish, but don't expect to have a lotta followers.

    9) Where does the Bible tells us we will have even one translation in English?

    Nowhere, let alone that God will be limited to only ONE translation in any language.

    10) Where does the Bible tell us to use the NIV, NKJV, NAS, RSV, TNIV, NWT, TEV, ESV (et al)?

    Right after the verse that says, "only the KJV is valid in English".

    11) Where does the Bible say we need Gods word in a version that our carnal and finite minds can understand it?

    1 Corinthians 14:9-So likewise you, unless you utter by the tongue words easy to understand, how will it be known what is spoken? For you will be speaking into the air.10-There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. 11-Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.

    12) If a version is based on a text that is guilty of adding to the inspired text, or taking away from it, is that version still the inspired, preserved word of God and something that we should use today?

    No, but the "guilt" must be PROVEN first.

    13) Where is your support for a 39 book Old Testament and a 27 book New Testament?

    In every valid English Bible version ever made. If you care to expand or shrink the canon, go right ahead, but I'll stick with what God's provided in English for many centuries up through the present.

    14) If the word of God is added to, is it still the inspired, complete, perfect preserved word of God?

    Depends upon WHO did the adding. JESUS added MUCH to the Scriptures. Peter recognized Paul's letters as Scripture.

    15) If the word of God is taken way from, is it still the inspired, complete, perfect, preserved word of God?

    Again, it depends upon WHO did it. Each Gospel gives a different number of women appearing at Jesus' tomb Sunday morning. Someone either added to or omitted from the number, but we accept all four accounts as Scripture.

    16) Where did God promise to preserve His word in conflicting versions of His word?

    In His canonization of Samuel, Kings, & Chronicles, which narrate different versions of the same events & later, when He canonized the four Gospels, which also give differing accounts of the same events.

    I've answered YOUR questions, Jim. Care to answer MINE??

    1.) Do you agree that Scripture is the highest written authority we have?

    2.) If you answer"Yes" to #1, do you agree that any doctrine about Scripture MUST BE SUPPORTED by Scripture since there's no higher written authority?

    3.) If you answer "yes" to both #1 & #2, by what authority do you advocate a doctrine ABOUT Scripture(KJVO) that is NOT SUPPORTED by Scripture?

    4.) No two English BVs are alike, old or new. By what criteria do you select the KJV as the ONLY valid version among all of them?

    5.) Is the Geneva Bible a valid English Bible translation? Why or why not?

    6.) Is KJVO of God, or man? I say, it's of man, and I have documented PROOF of such. If you say it's of GOD, can you document any proof? If it's a theory about God's word, but not of God, by what authority do you advocate it?

    7.) Why are certain things such as paraphrasing OK in the KJV, but not in any other version? Is this a double standard, or what?
     
  8. Phillip

    Phillip
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    This is a very interesting testimony Jim and I do appreciate your candor in posting it. I have not completely read it, but scanned to the bottom and let me point out something. I never really thought of it this way before, but our pastor asked us how often we heard somebody say, well the Holy Spirit showed it to me this way, or God told me this is what I should do, or The Holy SPirit answered my question and here is the answer?

    This is all fine and dandy, but according to Joseph Smith, an angel of the Lord's showed him where the new plates were buried for the 3rd testament of Jesus Christ.

    If you make a statement that the Holy Spirit showed this to you, then "YOUR WORD BECOMES INSPIRED". There is only one little problem with this, "Only the Bible is inspired." Since, today your words cannot be inspired, then you really should not say, the Holy Spirit showed me this, because if that were the case, then at least 100% of Christians who say that are either "inspired by God" or they are WRONG, when they say it. Does that make sense?

    It is not a personal attack, far from it. I am simply telling you that because you say that, as part of your testamony, the Holy Spirit showed this to you, I automatically put up my "warning" antennas and go, Ooooops, here is a modern day revelation. This is the reason I do have problems with TV evangelists. How many of them say: The Holy Spirit tells me that there is a person out there with a bad back, I'm going to pray for you right now, blah blah blah. See my point?

    I honestly do not mean so be rude here, just making an observation on the finality of your testimony. [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Hi Brother Phillip,
    i've heard this so much i even have a
    canned reply:

    ---------------
    I believe the Bible is the
    inerrant written words of God.
    It is nonsense for me to
    believe that my understanding
    of all the Bible is inerrant.

    You believe your Bible is the
    inerrant written words of God.
    It is nonsense for me to
    believe that your understanding
    of all your Bible is inerrant.


    Surely i have respect enough for my
    Brother in Christ that i will allow you your
    opinion. If further you believe your
    opinion, i will allow that also.
    But i will receive the same consideration
    for my opinion/belief.

    I am speaking of my opinion of what the Bible
    said versus your opinion of what the Bible said.
    What the Bible said is true, what
    the Bible means is your opinion or
    is my opinion.
    Don't get your opinion of what the Bible meant
    get confused with what the Bible said.
    ---------------

    Of course, i admit, i usually use this on
    my favorite topic: the pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection.

    [​IMG]
    </font>[/QUOTE]Well, I admit that this is probably number 2 on my list of poorly worded posts and was actually probably out of line considering that Jim was simply telling his point of view and trying to explain that he actually "felt" the Holy Spirit was leading him this way. We all do that (or have done that) to a certain extent.

    I was preoccupied while recording our radio sermons for tomorrow's radio broadcast (we have a low-power FM here), while I was trying to post. The statement just took me a little wrong.

    I do disagree with Jim in his reasonings, but I do respect that he has the right to believe that way. So, I should have argued the logic of the post, not his "byline".

    In reality, Jim, I read about two-thirds of your post, and got tired, scrolled on down to the bottom and responded poorly, in all honesty. Sorry, I will keep the discussion to the subject matter next time.

    Now if you specifically say the Holy Spirit TOLD you the KJV is the ONLY Bible, then we can argue that point. Fair?

    [​IMG]

    In reality, your post, although I do not agree with your conclusions is an interesting story, I would still like you to tell me which one of the King James' Bibles is the "inspired" one? Did anybody ever think that each was an MV, when it was printed? I bet sparks flew every single time it was revised. ;)
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    Now nobody can change the KJV -- too
    many KJVOs to protest.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Phillip

    Phillip
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    Oh, I always get to feeling like I did somebody wrong just about the time they say something like this to me on another subject thread:

    "I actually find this to be fun because it helps you all expose the total fallacy of your demonic view."

    I need somebody to kick me each time I go and apologize before I read all of the responses to my posts. :eek: [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  11. robycop3

    robycop3
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    Pastor Kevin R:Wow Roby, I've never heard of KJVO's like that, wanting to be violent because your Dad used the NASV!

    I now know these gents were the very great exception to the rule of general KJVO conduct, but they DID motivate Dad & me to begin an honest search for the truth. I asked God to give me an unbiased eye in my study, and I believe I've done so. This search helped me to escape the prison of Armstrongism by giving me the knowledge to discern that ole Herbie was preaching several false doctrines, such as "Annihilationism", the belief that the soul of one who dies in sin is destroyed in gehenna rather than punished eternally.

    The bias that was hard to shake was the language that 2 of those men used, even more than their hints of violence.(I am quite ready myself, & will not hesitate to use whatever violence necessary to defend family, property, or self. However, I believe that to use violence or threat of harm to force one's religious beliefs upon another is a GROSS SIN!) No devout Christian would use such language under any circumstance. I reckon there may still be such people around now, but I haven't encountered any more like them.

    I respect folks and understand where they come from if they only want to use the KJV, but when they cross the line is when they take on some of the aforementioned characteristics that the very KJV Bible speaks against!

    When someone attacks a MV, especially a version I consider valid, I often respond in kind to show'em the KJV isn't any more "perfect" than any other version. i believe the KJV is as valid as any other version in any language, but I completely reject the KJVO myth because it simply has no supporting evidence at all; it's an entirely man-made doctrine of fairly recent origin.

    As for Ruckman, his public conduct, his writings, and his personal life should dismiss his credibility even among the KJVOs. As for Riplinger, even another rabid KJVO author(David Cloud)has exposed her plain ole dishonesty for all to see. She is one of the main spreaders of the modern KJVO myth, and I honestly don't know how any devout Baptist could believe one word of her works if they take the time to chase the bunny trails from her books & videos to see just how wrong she's often been. KJVO was based upon misinformation and dishonesty from the start, and if anyone takes the time to really search out its beginnings, verify the assertions made by the various KJVO authors, and keep an open mind while doing it, he/she will see just how wrong the KJVO myth really is, that it's based upon a great double standard, and that almost all its arguments are based upon guesswork, innuendo, mistaken beliefs, and plain ole DISHONESTY.
     
  12. Phillip

    Phillip
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    Good post, Robycop3 [​IMG]
     
  13. gb93433

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    I rememeber years ago when I was in college and my roomate and I were discussing something. I asked him how he came to that conclusion. He told me the Holy Spirit told him. I pointed him to scripture that said quite the opposite. He had a strange look on his face. He has not learned to this day. He even went so far as to tell a young lady that God had spoken to him about marrying her. They were married and have had no end of troubles since. I do not see in scripture where the Holy Spirit is a great substitute for wisdom. It does say that a wise man has many counselors.
     
  14. Trotter

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    Am I the only one wondering if Jim will actually post any answers to the questions Cranston asked? Probably so.

    The thing that bothers me about Jim's account is the fact that, although EVERY version except the KJV had footnotes explaining that not all manuscripts had those verses, he decided that ALL of them were wrong. I mean, if I had a dozen people telling me the bridge was out, and one saying that it was fine, I wouldn't go tearing off without any reservations. Those footnotes are there for a reason.

    I love reading the various translations side by side. By comparing the way that they chose to word each verse, I get to see so much more of the true meaning . It's like turning a diamond in the light and watching the light shoot from the facets.

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  15. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist
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    Brother Ward:

    As I have stated previously in other threads, I am a KJV Preferred precisely because of those doubt-casting footnotes you mentioned. While I was with the Arminian Baptists, when discipling a new "convert" I felt it was always better to start them off with the KJV, like starting learning to drive a vehicle using stick shift. Once you learn it, you don't lose it.

    But I would not make the Bible Version used by a brother in Christ, or a church, a test of fellowship.
     
  16. Phillip

    Phillip
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    This is very true. I bought a parallel Bible that was on sale for about $3.00. The big white one with NASB, NIV, KJV and the Living Bible (paraphrase). It really helps clarify, especially the older language of the King James of which many of the words--I do not understand.

    The sad fact is that the KJV is an excellent translation, but many words just simply do not mean what we think they mean. For instance, a lady posted that her 6 year old was reading parts the KJV and understanding it and looking up the words she didn't know in a dictionary. The sad fact is that the child would have a much better understanding of exactly what was written on the originals by reading a newer version.

    I remember as a child, the little paperback "Good news for Modern man" (which was not extremely accurate) but, I just loved to read it because it was soooooo easy to understand. I would read it all the way through church every Sunday instead of listening to the pastor, because it just fascinated me. I never could do that with the KJV; and for your KJVO's I am NOT saying the King James is and was not a great translation, it just contains archaic words.

    When I first got my ESV, I questioned many verses because I saw things I never saw before. My pastor helped by looking it up in Greek (even using the textus receptus, to compare to the KJVs claimed manuscripts and I was shocked that I was not understanding the verses correctly in the KJV and the ESV clarified it for me.
     
  17. Phillip

    Phillip
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    Please note, that I am not degrading the Holy Spirit's assistance in reading the Bible, but sometimes if your life is not right with the Lord. We may interpret our own way and just think it is the Holy Spirit. Just as gb93433
    posted above.

    We are human and what we think is the Holy Spirit may not be, it may be our own interpretation. I do pray for wisdom and have faith God gives me some wisdom, but I'm still limited due to sin and human limitations.
     
  18. Plain Old Bill

    Plain Old Bill
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    Amen on your last paragraph Trotter.Well put!
     
  19. tinytim

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    Pinoybaptist:

    What do you think of the footnotes/marginal notes in the 1611 KJV?

    While I was KJVO, the footnotes bothered me also. But then I saw a 1611 that used the same footnotes. (except they are in the margin; hence marginal notes)

    Truth is, using the ending of Mark, we don't know how the original ended. No one knows. Even using textual criticism you can come up with differing opinions. So why not be honest and admit we don't know how it ended? What are we afraid of? The truth?

    I personally like the shorter ending, it fits in with the style of Mark.
    but that is just my opinion.

    BTW, I like reading the testimonies of all here. It makes it easier to *see* you as a real person instead of a computer screen.

    It also makes it harder to be mean to you!!!!!
     
  20. RaptureReady

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    Amen Brother Ward! Thanks for sharing that great testimony on how you became a believer in God's word.

    As for the others, well, we'll just keeping praying for uins.

    Also,

    No it doesn't. If the Holy Spirit has not shown you something in the Bible, try using and believing the King James Bible, the Holy Spirit will bring things out in a verse that maybe you onced just read or scanned across and thought nothing of it. I've done it, and it is a blessing to known that the Holy Spirit is there to help you along and show you a thing or two.
     

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