why is homosexuality sin?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by GODzThunder, Aug 1, 2004.

  1. GODzThunder

    GODzThunder
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    I am starting my dissertation and would like your valued input into my argument. It cannot be argued that homosexuality is not a sin, as the Bible plainly tells us that such is evil in the sight of the Lord.

    Yet, there are several arguments of unbalanced logic defending homosexuality.

    1. There are those who claim that homosexuality cannot be a sin because they were born with these desires.
    2. There are those who claim that it cannot be a sin because it is a mental illness, thus implying that it cannot be helped as a cold cannot be avoided. This belief is that it is wrong but not sin as the need for medical help must be applied.
    3. There are those who argue that homosexuality is simply a choice to love and that love cannot be wrong because they have the same level of love and devotion that hetrosexual couples have. This is refuted by the numbers of statistics revealing that homosexual couples in relationships of five years or longer have a 60% rate of cheating on your "significant other" while hetero relationships of the same length have only an 18% rate of cheating on their other.

    The Bible plainly says that homosexuality is a sin. Sin is a choice. It is the choice to turn away from morality and cling to immorality.

    My question is this. All sin has a logical conclusion behind it that even a lost man will recognize. Example, murder is wrong because it wrongfully ends the life of another. Theft is wrong because it involves taking that which rightfully belongs to another. Anger is wrong because it destroys relationships. Why is homosexuality sin? What makes it sin? Other than simply saying because it goes agasint the natural order or because God said it is sin why is homosexuality sin? What is the very essence and nature of homosexuality that makes it sin?

    thank you for your insights
     
  2. Brett

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    Just to clarify, the bible states that homosexual acts are sinful, but doesn't really comment on what we would call homosexuality today; that is, the "state" of being homosexual. This effectively eliminates the first of your arguments defending homnosexuality: a person may be born with homosexual tendencies, but this doesn't cause them to perform homosexual acts (refuting #1).

    Given that a dissertation requires a high degree of precision in its discussion - an operational definition of terms used, if you will - it would be prudent to ask, "Why are homosexual acts sinful?"

    And just as a comment, I would argue that argument #2 is just silly, as defining homosexuality as a mental illness would require a fairly liberal definition of mental illness (unless you define it as deviating from the norm, in which case it would apply). But I think your refutation of #3 is equally silly - if 25, 50, or 80% of heterosexual relationships resulted in adultery, would this mean that heterosexual relationships could no longer be called "love", or that non-adulterous heterosexual relationships would no longer be pleasing to the Lord? And if this is merely a comment on adultery, isn't the implication that non-adulterous homosexual relationships are acceptable?
     
  3. Dr. Bob

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    Don't even start that game. If homosexual acts are sinful, then the homosexual who performs such is sinful.

    That is a cop out for those saying they are homo's but don't ever do anything. Romans 1 says just burning in lust toward another of the same sex IS abomination and worthy of reprobation and death.

    What within the nature of homosexuality makes it so "bad"?

    Defies the first commandment of the entire Scripture, flying in the face of God's authority and plan. That's enough to gain it a special place of judgment.

    There's much more, of course, as family and society breaks down, the image of Jesus/Bride breaks down, evil triumphs, etc etc
     
  4. Johnv

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    We're born with a sinful nature in general. Those born with a propentisy for being attracted to the same sex are no exception.

    It's no more a mental illness, imo, than those born with a desire to fornicate, or chase after married men, etc. It's simply part of the sinful condition, no more no less. A person in this state is no better or worse than any one else.

    The Bible is specific to the sexual act and giving into the desire for it. It doesn't really address what you're referring to.

    The bible doesn't say that "homosexuality" is a sin. "Homosexuality" is a contemporary term, and for the purpose of this discussion, we should stick to biblical terms. The Bible says that giving into same gender sexual desire is a sin.

    The reason I differentiate between same gender sexual activity and "homosexuality" is because we cannot assume that everyone who is a homosexual has committee fornication, any more than we can presume that every heterosexual has done so. My 13yo is a heterosexual, and she's never even kissed a guy or held a guy's hand. I would be amiss if someone presumed she was having sex just because she said she was straight. It would be an unrighteous judgement, not to mention gossipp and rumor.

    Scriptural reserves the sexual act for marriage. Anything out of that is fornication. Same gender sexual activity is a form of fornication.

    Men flying goes against the natural order, but using that arguement to argue against flying is extra-scriptural. It's a good arguement, but not a purely scriptural arguement. However, scripture speaks adequately to the topic of same gender sexual acrivity without having to address the "natural order" issue.
     
  5. GODzThunder

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    Brett I agree that the arguments defending homosexuality are silly. All arguments that are flawed or that defend a lie are silly. I was not making arguments defending homosexuality I was simply stating arguments. I am asking the exact nature of why homosexuality is wrong? I want logical reasoning as to how it is a wickedness and is a sin.

    also I fully agree with Dr. Bob in that saying only the act is sinful and the tendencies are not. That is indeed a cop out. Jesus laid down a principle concerning adultery. If you even think of adultery you are as guilty as if you had committed the act. If you have homosexual tendencies you are as guilty as if you had committed the act. tendencies and thoughts are signs of a flawed mentality of the corput sinful mind of man.
     
  6. GODzThunder

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    I wonder why people never really read entire postings before making a comment. People who make entire postings debating doctrines that we completely agree upon but they cannot see that because they only skimmed a posting and saw an inkling or mentioning of something they are against. you all are debating the three given reasons that defend homosexuality but if you read the post you will see that I have already refuted these points. I am not trying to defend homosexuality I am against it. I am listing their statements and from that and the rest of my posting I am asking what is the logical reasoning in man's terms that homosexuality is wrong?

    though I must admit that your last comment Johnv inadvertanty hits the nail right on the head [​IMG]
     
  7. Johnv

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    Don't forget, that's no less true for heterosexuals. Jesus said that if a man looks at a woman lustfully, he has committed adultery in his heart. Adultery, as you know, was punishable by death. Romans 1 should not be used us by Christians to single out homosexuals for crucifixion, as we often do.
     
  8. Johnv

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    Forgive me, I wasn't agruing or debating, just giving my responses, and affirming some of your discussion. Sorry if it came off otherwise.
     
  9. Charles Meadows

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    Easy there Dr Bob,

    "That is a cop out for those saying they are homo's but don't ever do anything. Romans 1 says just burning in lust toward another of the same sex IS abomination and worthy of reprobation and death."

    Romans says God gave them over unto vile affections. The act is sinful, imagining the act is sinful. Feeling tempted (for whatever reason :eek: ) is not itself a sin if one resists it.

    We have a fairly large number of AIDS patients in our practice (yes - in WV!) and most of them are gay. They say they would never choose to be that way. I think it's a combination of being slightly effeminate to begin with, having poor male interaction, and living a SINFUL life away from God.

    I think we, especially those of you who are pastors, need to be sensitive - firm but loving. The homosexual act is absolutely a sin but the temptation is just that - a temptation. The temptation to have homosexual relations is likely the result of sin - but shouldn't be called a sin itself.
     
  10. Preacher Ron

    Preacher Ron
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    God made Eve for Adam.

    Adam and Eve! not Adam and Steve!

    Adam = Man
    Eve = woman

    God said thats the way he made it to be, and any other way than that, IT IS SIN !!!!
     
  11. GODzThunder

    GODzThunder
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    Is the only argument against homosexuality the one that states that God created man for woman and woman for man? While that in itself is good I am looking for even more research.

    I think what I want to know is what causes a person to engage in a homosexual act? (ex, a gang shooting is caused by anger, agression & pride).

    I have heard that homosexuality is the result of a continious lust addiction left unchecked. An overdose so to speak.
     
  12. JamesJ

    JamesJ
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    Please contact Stephen Bennett at Stephen Bennett Ministries and Micheal Johnston at Kerruso Ministries for some personal testimonies to help you along.
     
  13. Marcia

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    I don' know if I can answer your specific questions, but I am going to give you all the links on this topic I have found helpful, including the refutations of pro-homosexual Biblical arguments (you may not need these but maybe others here would like these).

    Also, I would like to point out that I think it would be better to speak of the homosexual act rather than homosexuality because there are hetereosexuals who engage in same sex relations for a variety of reasons. In some cultures, this is done as a manly thing because they do not identify themselves as homosexuals (in the African American community it's called the "down-low"). Also, it has been a trend recently in college for heterosexual girls to have lesbian sex out of curiosity, as sort of a "dare," and to titillate the guys.

    Here are the links:
    http://www.newdirection.ca/articles.htm

    Three aricles on the genetic theory:
    http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/satinover.html
    http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/narth/1995papers/satinover.html
    http://www.antithesis.com/commentary/born.html

    Three-part article from Cornerstone Magazine:
    http://www.cornerstonemag.com/features/iss114/1flesh1.html
    http://www.cornerstonemag.com/features/iss115/1flesh2.html
    http://www.cornerstonemag.com/features/iss115/1flesh2.html

    “Does the Bible Approve of Homosexuality?”
    http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/rr1995/r&r9504b.htm

    “Hermeneutical Issues in the Use of the Bible to Justify the Acceptance of Homosexual Practice”
    http://www.trinitysem.edu/journal/haas_hermen.html

    “Homosexuality and the Bible”
    http://www.tdl.com/~marzioli/question.htm

    “Homosexuality: The Christian Perspective”
    http://www.bible.org/docs/splife/chrhome/homo.htm

    Responding to Pro-Gay Theology
    http://www.anotherway.com/issues/theo.html#script

    “What Does the Bible Say?”
    http://www.messiah.edu/hpages/facstaff/chase/h/articles/art7.htm

    “Homosexual Myths”
    http://www.probe.org/docs/homomyth.html

    “Homosexual Attacks Against Scripture”
    http://www.rome4christ.com/reflectn/gwcs15.html

    Article from NARTH (Psychological assoc. that endorses the right of
    homosexuals to be treated in order to choose to be hetereosexual instead)
    that includes quotes from homosexuals that being homosexual is not genetic
    but is a choice
    http://www.narth.com/docs/innate.html

    MINISTRIES TO HOMOSEXUALS (or to those struggling with these issues):

    Another Way Out
    http://www.anotherway.com/

    Exodus International
    http://www.exodusnorthamerica.org/

    Setting Captives Free
    http://www.settingcaptivesfree.com/home/

    Stephen Bennett Ministries
    http://www.sbministries.org/ministry.html

    Crossover Ministries
    http://hightop.us/crossover.html

    Christian site for teens struggling with same-sex attraction and/or
    questions regarding homosexuality
    http://www.becomingreal.org/
     
  14. blackbird

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    I think about Bonnie and Clyde! Notorious bank robbers!

    Before they robbed the bank---they thought about it! They planned it! Did you know that conspirosy(spelling) to commit a crime is a crime!

    The thought is the Father of the deed! Jesus said that if you even think the thought---you've sinned and need to be washed!
     
  15. Comrade

    Comrade
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    God calls homosexuality an abomination not just a sin. Therefore if God said it then we should obey Him. The Bible is God's word. It is our ultimate authority on how God thinks about things. (Leviticus 18:22)
     
  16. Marcia

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    For a conspiracy to be a crime, it has to be more than just thinking it. Some plan must be announced or efforts to get the plan in motion.

    I am not sure Jesus said a thought is a sin. Lusting after someone is more than a thought, isn't it? Could you post scripture to support your claim that Jesus said thought is a sin?

    Aren't we "washed" when we trust Christ? I know that when we sin, we need to confess and ask forgiveness, but we are already "washed."
     
  17. Charles Meadows

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    Right on Marcia! [​IMG]

    Being tempted is not a sin! The act is a sin. Now one who fantasizes about or dwells on sinful acts is likely "sinning in his mind" - but the presence of temptation or physical desire itself is not sin.
     
  18. Acts 1:8

    Acts 1:8
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    Thunder,

    You might do well to eliminate the naturalism worldview and level the playing field some, but don't get drawn too far into trying to defeat a worldy arguement.

    Some people beleive that if it feels natural its ok. This is quickly defeated because many things are "natural" for many people. It's obvious that not all of our natural impulses are morally ok. Ax-murderers who get the natural urge to kill cannot argue that it just felt right to excuse thier sin.

    Someone might try to say that it's "natural" and it doesn't hurt anyone, so how is it wrong? This can be defeated by arguing that just because something doesn't readily seem to hurt someone doesn't mean it's hamrless and won't eventually harm them.

    Humans like everything else in the natural universe tend to gravitate downward. They often settle for lower, easier standards, easier beliefs, and many people in todays culture refuse to believe in anything absolute. Your best argument that H is a sin is going to be that there is absolute truth in morality that originates from a very absolute Almighty God.

    [ August 02, 2004, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: Acts 1:8 ]
     
  19. Preacher Ron

    Preacher Ron
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    AMEN! AMEN! AND AMEN! I will give you two thumbs up on this one. [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  20. GODzThunder

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    Acts that is exactly what I am trying to do is find a solid rebuttal to the worldview (of course without getting drawn too far into a battle that cannot be won on a world level).

    Homosexuals say that it just feels right but just as you said the Bible says there is a way that seems right in man's heart that leads to death.

    Thank you so much for this illuminaiton.
     

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