Why SHOULD we study escatology??

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Dec 16, 2006.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    In observing some of the responses to "What" escatology do you believe in -- as in "how do you think the world will end" -- the question will sometimes come up as to WHY we should even bother with trying to figure it out.

    Why does God spend so much time telling us about it in Dan 7, Matt 24, 2Thess 2, Revelation, Isaiah ...etc if in fact there is nothing we can do about it and most of mankind does not even live long enough to go through it?

    Model-A

    Suppose "for example" that the last day ending sequence is kinda like mankind being on a train with one stop. It will travel until time to stop then it will stop and mankind will all get off the train.

    If "it is what it is" why discuss it? Why have so much Bible devoted to telling us about it -- warning us about it - about something that we can not change?

    After all Christ will come whether we like it or not - and we can not affect how and when by simply believing something about it.



    Model-B

    Suppose for example that the last day ending sequence is like a train with MULTIPLE stops before the final stop. And at each station the scenario appears to "some people" like the end - and so they try to get off the train. In other words "needed to have known something to safely navigate to the correct stop"

    In 2Thess 2 the world is deceived by strong delusions at the end because they did not receive a love of the truth.

    Model C

    What if the correct model is that when you do stop at "the one stop" you have to have packed a lunch with extra water, or you have to have taken a bicycle with you - or you have to have filled out a resume to get through the gate ... in other words "you needed to have done something prior to getting here".

    In Matt 25 the 10 virgins needed to have taken something with them and survived through to the end so as not to be asleep and unprepared.

    Example - the Days of Noah

    Noah was "preaching escatology" like crazy -- but what difference would it make to the listener who says "maybe so, or maybe no... but when this world does end - it will be whatever God says and I won't have any say about it - so why listen to you and try to guess if you are right"

    Why does God spend so much time in scripture warning us about it? Why should we study it?

    What say you?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. Claudia_T

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    I think one reason we should study and know what will happen in the end is because of the false miracles that Jesus said would happen in the end, and also spoken about in the book of Revelation.

    "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet." "All these things must come to pass," said Christ, "but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows."
    Matthew 24:1-11


    If you know when Jesus is coming then you wont be deceived. and if you know the manner of His coming.

    "If any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, He is in the desert; go not forth: behold, He is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many" Matthew 24:1-11.
     
    #2 Claudia_T, Dec 16, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2006
  3. Ed Edwards

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    The reason for studying eschatology is to enhance our serve:

    2 Peter 3:10-14 (KJV1611 Edition):
    But the day of the Lord wil come as a thiefe in the night,
    in the which the heauens shall passe away with a great noise,
    and the Elements shall melt with feruent heate,
    the earth also and the works that are therin shalbe burnt vp.
    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolued,
    What maner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conuersation, and godlinesse
    ,
    12 Looking for and hasting vnto the comming of the day of God,
    wherein the heauens being on fire shalbe dissolued,
    and the Elements shall melt with feruent heat.
    13 Neuerthelesse wee, according to his promise,
    looke for new heauens, and a new earth,wherein dwelleth righteousnesse.
    14 Wherefore (beloued) seeing that ye looke for such things,
    be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace,
    without spot, and blamelesse.


    How does it enhanse our serve to be told we shall
    go through the Tribulation Period (AKA: Post-trib)?

    It does enhanse our serve to be told we shall
    (weather dead or alive) be glorified in Christ
    BEFORE the start of the Tribulation Period (AKA: pretrib).
     
  4. BobRyan

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    The Christian church HAS ALREADY gone through over a THOUSAND YEARS of slaughter, torture and "pure tribulation". If God speaking to John at the START of the Christian age wanted to convey the message "nothing of the kind will happen to the Christian church" -- then His word has already failed.

    But instead of that the sequence Christ gives in Matt 24 SHOWS the church going through the tribulation AND THEN the end comes.

    So "how does that edify" the church? It edifies it because all those saints being slaughtered, tortured and cast out for all those centuries could look in Matt 24 and say "SEE God SAW this -- this has not escaped HIS notice - He told us we would face such times and that they will end".

    It has been comfort to the saints in tribulation and torture for century upon century - "already".

    This is not a hypothetical question - it is a fact of history.

    And yet - there is more to come.

    Now I have a question for you... when it DOES come and it surely will -- how will you know whether to think of it as "more dark ages torture and tribulation that never got mentioned in scripture" (since in your view God missed that) OR will you take it as "well what do you know - the saints do go through the tribulation"??

    Which one will it be?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Ed Edwards

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    Sorry Sir, you fail to distinguish between the tribulationof the Saints
    and the Tribulation Period. 'Tribualtion of the Saints' is measured
    in pain, agoney, and long-suffering. The Tribulation Period is measured
    in Years (seven to be exact).

    Here is a writing to help you keep it straight:
    --------------------------------------------------------------

    The Five Tribulations
    of the Holy Bible
    Contrasted and compared
    by ed

    The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
    tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

    1. tribulation due to the human condition
    WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
    WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
    affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
    misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
    anguish, torment, adversity,
    travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
    famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
    WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
    to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
    God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
    maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

    2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
    WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
    WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
    even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
    WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
    few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
    gift of martyrdom

    3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
    WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
    WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
    usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
    WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
    (from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

    4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
    (AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
    WHO: citizens of the world
    WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
    WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

    5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
    WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
    WHAT: the wrath of God
    WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
    WHERE: worldwide
    WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

    Note that #1, #2, and #3 are measured in travail units;
    #4 and #5 are measured in time units.


    Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
    Period found in the O.T.:

    The tribulation in Deut 4:30
    the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
    the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
    the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
    The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
    The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
    The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
    The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
    The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
    See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:
     
  6. Ed Edwards

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    BobRyan: //Now I have a question for you... when it DOES come and it surely will -- how will you know whether to think of it as "more dark ages torture and tribulation that never got mentioned in scripture" (since in your view God missed that) OR will you take it as "well what do you know - the saints do go through the tribulation"??//

    You point out a problem with the Post-tribualtion rapture/resurrection.
    Nobody knows when the Tribulation Period starts.
    It is obvious when the Tribualtion Period starts in the Pre-tribulation
    rapture/resurreciton scenario: all those real
    Christians will be gone-GONE- GONE!
     
    #6 Ed Edwards, Dec 16, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 16, 2006
  7. Claudia_T

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    I dont know anything much about escatology but Im guessing we will know its different because of the false signs and wonders?

    Matthew 24:
    21: For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    22: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
    23: Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    24: For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


    I dont even know if thats the right tribulation LOL! are there different ones or something? I never really studied into the escatology thing.
     
  8. Claudia_T

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    Who is Mel Miller anyway?
     
  9. Ed Edwards

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    Claudia_T: //I never really studied into the escatology thing.//

    Interesting, I spend six months studying escatology under
    an SDA pastor???
     
  10. Ed Edwards

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    Mel Miller is the kindly fellow with whom I usually discuss eschatology
    over in Baptist territory. I still had time to correct my
    statement above and it correctly identified BobRyan, the kindly
    fellow with whom I usually discuss eschatology
    over in the all-faiths territory.
     
  11. Claudia_T

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    Ed,

    The only thing Ive really read about it was the stuff in the Amazing Facts folders which you have probably heard of. But I pretty much have forgotten what all was in there.

    I know that the subject is very important but the thing is that I wouldnt even know where to begin to try to study it. I guess I view myself as not being smart enough to understand it all.


    ...and when I try to read some of the stuff on here you guys post I REALLY think Im not smart enough to understand it. All the Pre-Trib and Post-Trib and all of that, I dont even have a clue what they are talking about.

    Claudia
     
  12. Dustin

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    That's why I'm persuaded to take a historicist/ partial preterist/ Amill approach. The historic view of the majority of the church was at a time the Amill position, though now i suspect that dispensationalism is THE prevelent view. Our bretheren before had tribulation almost immediatly and were persecuted harshly after Stephen was martyred. Our bretheren around the globe are martyred even today, and yes some are even persecuted here in the States. The sci-fi tones of interpreting prophecy today (usually in the hyper dispy camp) range from odd to downright insane. All those people who try to guess when the rapture will happen are time and again disappointed when the days go buy and all cars driven by Christians still have Christians inside. I think eschatology should be studied because like all Scripture it inevitably points to Christ. It's part of the whole counsel of God, and should be studied and preached. Eschatology is one of those studies that is shaped by other theological studies. I think there's room to be wrong in interpreting events, but one day, we'll be in heaven and we'll have ALL our theology straightened out.

    Grace and Peace to you,
    Dustin
     
  13. Claudia_T

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    Wouldnt whatever you believe about the Millenium and "the rapture" make a big difference in deceptions?
     
  14. Dustin

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    No, the Millenium and rapture might take place a hundred years after I die. I might die today Lord willing I won't but Lord willing, I may. Our main focus should be on the path the Lord has ordained for us, we should be watchful also, but not so much so that we neglect our everyday duties, as God has ordained those too. I have to go now, but I'll write more on this in the evening.

    May the Grace and Peace of God be with you,
    Dustin
     
  15. BobRyan

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    BobRyan: //Now I have a question for you... when it DOES come and it surely will -- how will you know whether to think of it as "more dark ages torture and tribulation that never got mentioned in scripture" (since in your view God missed that) OR will you take it as "well what do you know - the saints do go through the tribulation"??//

    Notice -- your first point is that there is NO tribulation for the church AND they should rejoice in this -- vs the post trib view where there IS tribulation for the church

    But then you admit that from the time of John to this very day AND INTO THE FUTURE until the appearing of Christ there is and has been TONS of tribulation for the church. So that John looking into the future would see CENTURY load after CENTURY load of tribulation FOR the SAINTS!


    And now you say that this is only an issue for the POST trib view????

    Your argument is of the form "the saints go through tons of tribulation in the past and in the future - but once they see the rapture of the church they have the comfort of knowing -- NO MORE TRIB for the church"???

    THAT IS your "comfort"????

    Guess what -- that is EXACTLY the point of the post-trib rapture group. ONCE the Church is raptured NO more tribulation but until then LOTS of tribulation for the saints!!

    You identify the ONE thing that BOTH are claiming!!

    The difference is that your pre-Trib view claims NO TRIBULATION for the saints -- while then having to admit to TONS of tribulations for the saints ALL DURING the time between John and the coming of Christ!! the post Trib view ADMITS to the tons of tribulation for the saints right up front !! end of story.

    Now you gotta ask yourself - if what the saints in all ages DID experience is tons of TRIB in ALL ages -- how in the world is your no-trib story helping them??

    Secondly - we SEE a "TRIB followed by the appearing of Christ" SEQUENCE in Matt 24 as I have shown repeatedly.

    WHERE on earth do we see "APPEARING of Christ -- followed by TRIBULATION" in ALL of scripture? -- answer: nowhere.

    But then you already knew that - or you would have provided a text for it by now.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #15 BobRyan, Dec 16, 2006
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  16. BobRyan

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    That is true - the pre-millennial 2nd coming view that is exacltly the sequence we see in Rev 19 and 20 - was not dominant in the 1700's and the early 1800's.

    True - but that fits the post-trib pre-millennial rapture group perfectly.

    True. That is a complaint that the post-trib pre-mill group often make about the left-behind stories.

    True - but in places like Matt 24 and 2Thess 2 we are told of end-time deception that if it were possible "deceives the very elect" when it comes to just how the sequence unfolds and being able to discern between truth and error.

    My argument is that the safest course is to hold to the exact sequence shown in Matt 24 and Rev 19-22 without inserting a bunch of "that is not really true - or not really a 1000 years or not really the right sequence" teaching right from the get-go.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

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    There is no mention of 7 years of tribulation in all of scripture -

    Certainly not in Dan 9 and the 70 weeks "MESSIANIC prophecy".

    No "APPEARING of Christ followed by 3.5 years of trib" in Dan 9 (70 weeks) OR in Rev 6 or in Rev 9.

    No 7 year trib in Rev 6 or 9 and no SEQUENCE of " coming of Christ followed by 7 years of tribulation" listed in Rev 6 OR 9!

    But in Matt 24 we DO have the GREAT trib followed by the appearing of Christ IN SEQUENCE.

    There is no mention of 7 years of tribulation in all of scripture -

    Certainly not in Dan 9 and the 70 weeks "MESSIANIC prophecy".

    No "APPEARING of Christ followed by 3.5 years of trib" in Dan 9 (70 weeks)

    I notice you have no mention at all of any text in all of scripture for this "coming of Christ followed by GREAT trib" idea.

    But in Matt 24 we DO have the GREAT trib followed by the appearing of Christ IN SEQUENCE.

    -- the ball is in your court sir - :wavey:

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

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    Your argument seems to be that if you happen to die before the end-time-events you will not be affected by any factual difference between the way you view it - and how it actually turns out.

    But you have to admit -- God does spend a lot of realestate in scripture warning us about that end-time sequence and telling us "be not deceived".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. Dustin

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    Right on, Bob. Scripture says it, therefore I am conformed by it. The Book of Revelation is full of hard things, but it's there for a reason. It's the consummation of all things, showing that Christ is indeed the beginning and the end of all things in the world and in redemption. When I read through it, I see hope and exhortation and comfort in knowing that through all, Christ is King, and He is in total control.

    Grace and Peace to you,
    Dustin
     
  20. Rufus_1611

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    We should study eschatology because...
    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" - 2 Timothy 3:16

    Further, what one believes eschatologically, is likely to impact their attitudes and actions.

    (I'm partial pre-trib btw)
     

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