Why the Sunday-keeping Church thinks of Sunday as the Sabbath

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gerhard Ebersoehn, Oct 25, 2007.

  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
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    May I use the opportunity to invite BobRayn and the rest of you, for a discussion on thread, "Why the Sunday-keeping Church thinks of Sunday as the Sabbath?" See you there, God willing!

    I and my deceased brother who was a Seventh Day Adventist sometimes discussed our different views and reasons for believing the Seventh Day Sabbath - I am, and since my early twenties, have not been, a SDA.
    I tried to explain to him, My Reformed brethren believe Sunday is the Sabbath mainly because they believe Jesus was resurrected on the First Day of the week ... of course Sunday. My brother's answer was - like that of every SDA I know - Jesus' resurrection is not a Scriptural reason for the keeping of the day upon which He rose from the dead. 'It's not a Scriptural reason.' There's the crux of the 'issue' I would like to have discussed. Over!
     
  2. larryjf

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    If i could show you in Scripture where Sunday is called the Sabbath would you agree that is a good reason for celebrating the Sabbath on Sunday?
     
  3. Eliyahu

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    Sunday is the first day of the week or 8th day, not the Sabbath.

    Sabbath is the seventh day. But I don't celebrate the Sabbath as Jesus is my Sabbath.
     
  4. Pastor_Bob

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    Amen! Sunday is the Lord's day not the Sabbath.
     
  5. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Yup - good enough for me!
     
  6. BobRyan

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    I might actually go for that --

    Show me where week-day-1 is called "The Sabbath" as in a weekly Sabbath.

    Recall that in Lev 23 there are also annual Sabbaths that can fall on almost any day of the week.
     
  7. larryjf

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    Mat 28:1 in the ESV reads...
    Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb.

    In the Greek the bold actually reads...
    at the end of sabbaths toward the first of sabbaths

    So there you have the very Sunday of our Lord's resurrection called the "first of sabbaths."

    You find similar wording in Mk 16.
     
  8. BobRyan

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    You find "week" and a version of "sabbaton" used. This is far from "week-day-1 is Sabbath" as has been shown repeatedly.

    But I seem to recall that Harold Camping likes to imagine it quite differently than recognized Bible scholars do.

    Try inserting "Seventh day Sabbath" each time you find the sabbaton for week in the NT and see where that gets you.

    I will show you a few examples if you don't have time for the exercise yourself.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. larryjf

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    I have no idea what some of Camping's teachings are.

    The word "sabbaton" is used in both instances in the verse.
    Just as God finished His work in the original creation and sanctified the day, so God sanctified the day that He finished His work in the new creation.
     
  10. Joe

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    I'll attempt this, but may get eaten up. Please be gentle :)
    I have asked various Pastors, none believe Sunday is the correct Sabbath Day.

    When asked, they offered me 2-4 bible verses then refer to the “Spirit” of the law of regarding the 10 commandments. I ask how they honor the 4th commandment “in spirit” since the only requirement is to honor a specified day, the Saturday Sabbath. They usually just stare for a bit.....then refer back to the same bible verses.

    I am not fully convinced in my own mind that breaking the 4th commandment is a good idea so our family attempts to obey all 10 commandments. There are various passages in the NT which remind us to obey the commandments. Hopefully, these are referring to the 10 commandments because that is how I read them.

    Scripture below appears to prove honoring the 4th Commandment is not a requirement. Also, many people believe the 10 commandments were given only to the Isrealites

    I believe "the law" here is referring specifically to the old laws which may or may not, include the 10 commandments.

     
    #10 Joe, Oct 25, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 25, 2007
  11. BobRyan

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    Glad to see you don't read Camping -- now try to avoid his antic with sabbaton for week.

    Luke 18
    God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess” (18:11-12, .

    The phrase “twice a week” comes from the Greek dis tou sabbatou. Obviously Jesus was not saying that the Pharisee boasted of fasting twice on the Sabbath day, but twice (dis) a week (tou sabbatou).
     
  12. BobRyan

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    I have to agree there.

    Well said!

    good points all.

    "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith?? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31.

    In Romans 7 we find that the "Law is holy just and good".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

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    BTW I agree with the general approach Joe is using - you have to first decide to honor or trash the Commandments of God - THEN having made that decision - take whatever the logical next step is with Christ our Creator's Memorial of HIS Creative act in making all life on this planet.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

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    John 14:15 ”If you love Me keep My commandments”

    These are the Words of Christ the Creator as He quotes from the 2nd commandment.

    But what exactly did these pre-cross words of Christ “mean” to His Jewish followers – the “primary audience” that exegesis would have us consider?

    Lets see if we can discover that by looking at some more statements found in God’s Word.


    Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”.


    Instead of “less obedience” to each commandment of Christ the Creator – God calls for “more”. No wonder Paul says --

    So lets see. The law will not change in even the minutest way, till heaven and earth pass. Anyone who breaks the law, and teaches others to do so, will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. Thinking about committing sin is now just like actually committing the sin. Ah, the law has been magnified. Christ came and fulfilled the law, observing all of it’s commands, even in thought, not just action.

    Yes, lets let the scriptures speak for themselves.

    Christ quotes from the 3rd commandment for the statement above.

    Christ said that HIS commandment and the Father’s Commandment are one and the same


    Notice that John promotes this theme not only with his recording the pre-cross statements of Christ the hCreator – but also the post –cross teaching.
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    [/quote]
    Christ condemns those who would break the Commandments of God for the sake of man-made tradition –
    Christ’s followers continue to keep the Sabbath commandment after His command that they should “Love Me and Keep My Commandments” John 14:15 (quoting from the 3rd commandment in Exodus 20)


    I Jn 5:2-3 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    Rev 12:17 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Rev 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    Rev 22:14 14[b] Blessed are they that do his commandments,[/b] that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


     
  16. larryjf

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    You say that it is obvious that he didn't fact twice on the Sabbath day, but couldn't the Greek be translated, "i fast doubly on the sabbath?"
     
  17. Joe

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    We are going to our in-laws soon for dinner, so I don't have time to look up many verses at the moment. Imho, everyone ought to read the verses Bob provided. Especially his/the words," in fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31.


    If we say we have no sin, then we are liars. Imho, we must make a genuine attempt to obey the commandments, but we need to understand we are not able to without Jesus. His grace and mercy upon us is key. Since we are not without sin, we can't obey at all times, period. Christ came to fulfill the law, not disregard it. He will cover us where we fail (no verse for that one, but many verses combined = that conclusion)

    Yet if we don't genuinely attempt to obey the 10 commandments, then what? Will he save us? Who knows, but I would rather be safe than sorry.

    Obviously, there is scripture contrary to what I believe. But I see nothing to loose in obeying the 10 commandments as best we can. Now following "the law" is another issue. No one does this, but many "cherry pick" in an attempt to. That's fine with me :) Imho, God appreciates the honor (as long as we don't loose our relationship over it. Our attention being more focused on following too many OT rules ) Balance is key.
     
    #17 Joe, Oct 25, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 25, 2007
  18. BobRyan

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    Here we have the example of five Sunday-keeping Bible scholars who see the issue clearly (Gill, Lightfoot, Jamieson, Fausset, Brown)


    Luke 18

    God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess” (18:11-12, .

    The phrase “twice a week” comes from the Greek dis tou sabbatou. Obviously Jesus was not saying that the Pharisee boasted of fasting twice on the Sabbath day, but twice (dis) a week (tou sabbatou).

     
  19. skypair

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    Joe, BR,

    I admire that you want to live "lawful" lives. Living in a Judeo-Christian society, that will always be a path to blessing from God. However, if you subject yourselves to the law, you are servant to obey ALL the law (legal, ceremonial, etc.). And it often leads to one not obeying the Spirit, the "2nd Master."

    *John 1:17 has some important things to say about that law. "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." 1) Jesus brought a new form of divine grace which had not existed in the OT. (came = originated) 2) The grace that comes through Jesus REPLACES for the law that came through Moses. That is, it serves the believer in place of law.

    We KNOW that the law never saves -- it only condemns our misbehavior in this life. Now the Spirit is given -- a sort of example, the life of Jesus -- to know how to live (consider how many times the Pharisees thought that Jesus was violating the law and you see the difference between law and Spirit).

    And Paul says this in Rom 6:14 -- "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." Law and grace are interchangeable here. Both are rules of life with grace being far preferred in this Christian age since grace is not imposed esternally to condemnation but internally by a) the indwelling Holy Spirit and b) our own predisposition to do God's will on account of repentance to Christ.

    skypair

    * Largely taken from Renald Showers There Really Is a Difference.
     
  20. Joe

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    Funny, I thought I just answered this and hit submit. But it didn't show up :eek:

    Great post. I don't understand one thing. I don't see where following the 10 commandments means one must follow all the whole OT laws. No one does this. Unless it is mentioned again in the NT, then why follow them? Otherwise, it is cherry picking.

    There are many passages in the NT which state we are to obey the 10 commandments.

    Amen :)

    I will add that just because one strives to obey the 10 commandments literally, doesn't automatically mean they do a better job as someone who follows them in spirit. Maybe they have more patience for their parents than I do, etc...
     

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