Why the teacher IS the authority in a class

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Mr.M, Aug 24, 2007.

  1. Mr.M

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    Instead of bothering with people whose ears are so tender they can only endure a chorus that agrees with them, I offer to those more seasoned a thread for debate.

    I assert that in a class, a class of any type whether it be the entire congregation or one student, the teacher IS the authority in the class and should teach, as Jesus did, with AUTHORITY. I further assert that the teacher should be by all normal human standards and then more importantly by BIBLICAL standards one that has MASTERY of his subject, hence his authority in teaching the subject.

    I realize that in this day and age, disorientation to genuine authority is rampant in people in general but much so among Christians who of course are effected by the culture at large, which is by-in-large an anti-authoritarian culture. One that is intolerant of genuine boundaries and subordination to authority. So even approaching the subject for some is nearly impossible because you immediately get an emotional whiplash and intense hysterical overreactions. Of course this is my view, you may not agree but that could be because you are in the midst of what I just described, but maybe not. :laugh:

    Anyway, the crux of the issue, what is the most effective way to regularly instruct? Well, if you look at most normal human functions regarding education, primarily you have the master teacher method. I know, somehow we Christians are now special and are exempt from this reality...right? WRONG. Let me enlighten.

    From first grade upward we learn from a master teacher. In our ignorance we enter 1st grade with minimal skills. While it is normal during instruction to ask questions and discuss an area of misunderstanding or application, again, the TEACHER is the master of the class. The teacher corrects erroneous thinking or wrong conclusions by the student. Why can or does the teacher do this? Because they posses the academic and hierarchical authority to do this. The student is learning the subject that the teacher has MASTERED. This is the nature of the teacher.

    But imagine if students in any grade decided they were going to shut up only when THEY thought they should or attempt to challenge the teacher's authority. You see, not only does the teacher have the duty and right to teach with authority but the structure of the class is the duty and right of the teacher, which is part of the hierarchical authority of the teacher. The teacher sets the times and method of teaching.

    And so all through school this is our learning method. Algebra in 8th or 9th grade is learned by quietly learning from the mastery of the teacher. Again, no one is suggesting there aren't questions or discussion of concepts one needs clarity and application on, especially in Algebra, but it is the teacher, the MASTER that makes clear the unclear for the student.

    Go to any area of life and where there is GENUINE learning there is GENUINE authority and mastery with the instructor. And where there is GENUINE learning there is genuine respect by students who recognize, appreciate and acquiesce to the superior training and preparation of the teacher. Hence they willfully and eagerly gain the benefit of his instruction so that they too may move on to mastery and the capacity to instruct.

    In every area of life students primarily learn from a master. Karate, tennis, golf, needlepoint, tying your shoe, reading...whatever, all involve someone telling you the right way and the wrong way. The tennis instructor tells you which fundamental movements are right and which are wrong. And with all people the application of those fundamentals only adjust with their unique skeletal and muscular design. Meaning everyone's overhead is not identical but there are certain fundamentals that will be. These are rules and realities passed down by a master teacher to the student who in turn becomes a master, able to teach.

    And this was the fascination with our Lord by the Pharisees. He taught with authority. While the Pharisees sat around debating and discussing what they THOUGHT something meant through there "share-for-alls" our Lord revealed their nativity and foolishness and demonstrated authoritative teaching. He made clear what something DID mean and didn't entertain everyone else's opinion and suggestion as to what THEY thought it should mean. Why? Because he knew what it meant. Hopefully no one is suggesting we cannot teach KNOWING what they Bible means or friend, you are in a world of hurt unable to come to the truth.

    Does anyone say to the Master teacher who instructs in needlepoint, golf, mechanics, shoe tying and so on...WHO MADE YOU in charge and WHAT MAKES YOU think YOU have the answers? How can you teach me so AUTHORITATIVELY as if other ways aren't just as good? Who do YOU think you are? YOU are arrogant telling me in such a matter of fact way HOW something is properly done! Well guess who did develop such an attitude....the Pharisees! They HATED Jesus for such clear teaching and constantly correcting their error and ultimately paid the price for such audacity in teaching with authority as well as other false causes produce in the minds of the Pharisees and others, which He came to pay on our behalf

    How bizzare would that be to have such a student? But alas it seems this is JUST what is being proposed by some. Frankly I find it a most pathetic way to learn if one learns anything that way, at all!

    So here we come to the Bible and Christianity and it seems we have a very big case of rebellion among those who would in every other area of life learn with a master teacher. The qualified teacher will teach with mastery and authority. Just like in every area of life he should be able to clearly and concisely communicate the truths of his subject matter and aid in the enlightenment of the students. The students should arrive respectful of his academic authority and his hierarchical authority.

    If a student believes that a teacher does not have either or any such authority then my question is, WHAT are you doing sitting under such a person's instruction?

    In the end, the truth is, either you are or you aren't the one in authority in a class. If the teacher isn't the one in authority then, pray tell, who is? Good grief people. :laugh:
     
    #1 Mr.M, Aug 24, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 24, 2007
  2. exscentric

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    "If the teacher isn't the one in authority then, pray tell, who is?"

    God I would hope. :thumbs:
     
  3. ReformedBaptist

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    I supose I have been given liberty in this thread to give you a tongue lashing, and you have set yourself up to slap everyone in the face if you so desire.

    Yet I will be gentle to some degree. This "rant" you have spent both time, thought, and energy on is probably, in my opinion, one of the greatest waste of your time. In my opinion, it is an utter display of your carnal, selfish, prideful, self-assertive, and arrogant nature. There exists nothing in this pathetic discouse an once of Christian love, mercy, kindness, or patience. It is devoid of the fruit of the Spirit of God and chok full of the depraved nature of man still abiding in you.

    If, God forbid, Providence has provided even one pupil to sit under you dictorial instruction, I pray the Lord deliver those sheep from between your teeth. Go and learn what it means to be shepherd since you seem to be setting yourself up as one.

    Now, my tone in this reply is harsher than in any reply I have made on the BB so far. If you think yourself a shepherd of God's inheritance, the venom, sarcasm, and lordship I detect in this rant of yours immediately reminded me of Eze 34.

    "Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill them that are fed: but ye feed not the flock. The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them. "

    This discourse also reminded me of this verse,

    1 Peter 5:2-3
    "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock."

    Also,

    1 John 1:27
    "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

    Now this verse is not to deny teachers given to the Church. But they are gifts to the Body of the Christ, to build them up and strengthen them. This is done, by those whom the LORD sends, in all meekness, love, and humility.

    But in your tone you seem to purport yourself as an apostle of Christ and command obedience to your feigned authority. Let none question thee! "Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks"

    I say to you, thou "shepherd" of the sheep, get in your knees and gird thyself and wash the feet of thy brethren. This diatribe of yours was a waste of hot air and revealed your nature.
     
  4. dan e.

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    Why is it that people can word things so much better than myself? Maybe I'm not "authoritative" enough! :laugh:

    Good post...I agree.
     
  5. Mr.M

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    Trust me "brother" my ears aren't so tender and my constitution so weak that I cannot endure you thoughts about me whether pleasant or unpleasant as it is with SOME. However, I do find it interesting that immediately you a persuaded to make this personal and unable to constrain yourself enough to stay on topic...but so be it.

    Your skills at interpreting motives seem to need improvement. But then I didn't know one could read the motives of others. :laugh:


    Of course, as long as you are addressing Mr.M then it makes it OKAY to reply harshly though you berate me for the very thing. Good grief. :thumbs:


    "Brother" lording over a flock refers to the MISUSE of Authority as a Shepherd, not the legitimate USE of authority. Apparently you are under the erroneous belief that God did not vest teachers with ANY authority, even up to Shepherds.



    I purport myself as an apostle? Ha. Can you point to anything I have said to support this charge other than the creation of this in your imagination? Tsk tsk, to charge someone falsely is quite grievous but to deduce this and state it merely from a "tone" that YOU perceive is reckless.

    You again seem to believe meekness, love and humility are divorced from AUTHORITY. In fact it is the arrogant believer that rejects authority. We have authority in every area of life. Genuine authority is from God, it is the greatest display of humility for one to use their authority properly and for the benefit of those under them and for those subordinate to that authority to respect it. I really am at a loss for your conclusions other than I think they were hastily formed based on a personal distaste and not an academic one.

    But now that you got that out of the way, how about discussing the topic at hand and the merits, for and against and YOUR thoughts about the most effective method of teaching and learning.
     
  6. J. Jump

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    Well if that were to happen then everyone's opinion in SS wouldn't be validated any more whether correct or not :laugh:.
     
  7. Mr.M

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    Did you not know God exercises his authority through teachers? Surely you are aware of this...right? Remember the Bible verse..."all those in authority"

    “Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men. Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God. Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king” (I Peter 2:13-17).
     
  8. dan e.

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    Can a moderator close this thread? It seems that MrM has some hidden agenda to rip up other's thoughts, as displayed in the previous thread.

    Have we ever found out about his church? Are you for real MrM!!?

    May I suggest a day or two off of the baptistboard, my friend. Oh yeah, and that book that I think you will benefit from!
     
  9. rbell

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    This goes against the priesthood of the believer. And likening one's self as a teacher to Christ Himself is the height of arrogance.

    Good Catholic theology, though.
     
  10. Filmproducer

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    It's called hot air and Mr. M is full of it. Behind all of his pompous bellyaching concerning the analytical skills and intellectual ability of his fellow BB members is a man yearning for cogency. In one statement he criticizes those who dare disagree with him "as having tender ears", yet the minute one disagrees with him he acts much like a spoiled child who has been told to share his toys with others. :laugh:

    Mr. M, you do realize that "cogent force" does not mean attack the intellectual ability of your oppenent until they deem your not worth the effort, but rather having a sound, rational argument from the start, right? Methinks you have confused the two in your sharp analytical mind..... :wavey:
     
  11. Hope of Glory

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    While I my not agree with Mr. M's apparent attitude, why would someone assume that God can't work through an individual in authority?

    If the person in authority is godly, why would you assume that God isn't in charge, simply because it's not a free-for-all?

    Why would you assume that a person in authority is automatically going to be tyrannical?

    I've never had a college class that was a free-for-all, why would our Bible studies be any different?

    Now, in most classes, there is room for questions and answers, going both ways, but usually after the class, or on a separate day in the form of a test.
     
  12. ReformedBaptist

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    You reply to me, point by point as if I actually would to debate you. Nothing could be further from the truth. I wrote simply to rebuke you.
     
    #12 ReformedBaptist, Aug 24, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 24, 2007
  13. dan e.

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    Master M,

    Let's say you have a young adult in your class who does not particularly learn well via your lecturing. Even if they take notes, their mind wanders and they cannot stay focused. They are figity, and may not be able to sit still for your entire lecture (a shock, I know). How would you "authoritatively" handle this?

    What I'm getting at is people learn differently. Some, like the made up person in my scenario, are kinesthetic learners. I honestly doubt that everyone in a single room just by chance all learn the same way....ie. the way that suits your "teaching" style. It is the responsibility of the leader to get to know those in the group, and begin to understand how they learn. This involves actually knowing those people. If you aren't throwing the seed in the way they can catch it, my friend, they won't be catching any of it. Regurgitating your lectures is hardly learning.

    You've got to work the soil before you can start scattering seed. I REALLY SUGGEST THIS BOOK: "The Dirt on Learning"
     
  14. ReformedBaptist

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    I wish it to stay open, that both his diatribe, and my rebuke may stand. But let the mods do what seems best to them.
     
  15. pinoybaptist

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    In secular classes, perhaps, I would submit to the authority of the teacher since it will make no difference to the spiritual welfare of people if I didn't get my equations and formulas and simplifications and philosophies right in the classroom, I can always refer to relevant and updated material outside the classroom as long as I have that diploma hanging on the wall testifying to one and all that I am a graduate of such and such a secular institution.
     
  16. ReformedBaptist

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    I love the word methinks... :thumbs:
     
  17. EdSutton

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    Uh, where in Scripture does it ever say that in the church, the gifted individuals (all of the twenty-odd gifts) have any "authority"?

    I read somewhere about the 'office' of bishop/elder having 'authority', if my memory serves. And as Baptists, the 'authority' rests in the body, not in any 'leader' wannabes, if I get that right.

    In my own church, I have more actual 'authority' than any, save the 'Senior' pastor (for he has some specifically delineated in the Constitution and By-laws), as I am the Moderator. I also have the spiritual gift of teacher, but do not currently teach a class, per se, hence would not presume to take any 'authority' from that gift. I do, however, have a little bit in the business meetings. :smilewinkgrin:

    And as another pointed out, your 'position' would seem to leave little room for the 'priesthood of believers', as well.

    A 'school' setting, not specifically a part of a church body, per se, could be a different matter. Please make that distinction.

    Respect for a teacher is one thing; supposed 'authority' to run things as one wishes, is a "hoss of a different color".

    As to teachers, in my home church, we, the body, elect 'em; we can just as easily un-elect 'em.

    And FTR, as long as I hold the position of Moderator, I will not even vote on any issues, including personnel, except to break a tie-vote, should such occur. Robert's Rules, the Constitution and By-laws, and all that!

    Ed
     
    #17 EdSutton, Aug 24, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 24, 2007
  18. tinytim

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    A teacher with true authority isn't one who is constantly reminding people he or she is in charge!

    I'm the boss... I'm the boss... I'm the boss...

    Sounds like a kindergartener having a temper tantrum.

    People recognize authority, they don't need to be told...
    People recoginized Jesus' authority, without him screaming... "I'm in authority"...

    I will follow those in true authority given by God...
    But not those posers that have to scream to get their way!

    (BTW, Mr M.. my warning still stands from days before... I have no hesitation to hit the ! button, if you continue to badger the good posters on BB...especially the women!)
     
    #18 tinytim, Aug 24, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 24, 2007
  19. dan e.

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    If ever you have to point out that you think you should have authority to others, the chances are they don't respect you enough to follow your lead.

    If you are a leader, people will recognize it without needing to be told.
     
  20. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Good points men. Anyone who has to say he in charge isn't no matter what he thinks.
     

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