Why the usual tired old "Darby" rebuttal can RIP....

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by LadyEagle, Dec 12, 2004.

  1. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    22,028
    Likes Received:
    1
    Conservative On Line :D
     
  2. Link

    Link
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2004
    Messages:
    695
    Likes Received:
    0
    I read that the pre-trib rapture theory was invented by a Roman Catholic priest writing in the period afte rthe Reformation started, arguing against the theories going around that the pope was the antiChrist. I think he was before the preacher mentioned in this article.

    My problem with the pretrib rapture teaching is that I just can't find one whit of scriptural evidence to back it up. If it is true, why isn't it in the Bible? Where do we get the idea that he saints won't go through the tribulation? 'Not appointed unto wrath' just doesn't cut it. Are the tribulational saints appointed unto wrath? Revelation has _BOTH_ resurrections AFTER Christ returns.

    Millinealist positions are very ancient. Papias, who may have known the apostle John was apparently a millinealist. In the time of Eusebius in the 300's, amillinealism was starting to catch on. But Eusebius, to be fair, had to admit all of the ancient evidence for the belief in millinealism, which was opposed to his own viewpoint. Justin Martyr also believed that Christ would set up his kingdom in Jerusalem on the earth., Belief in the return of Christ and Christ setting up a kingdom on the earth, an a thousand years reign on earth is very ancient. As for pre-mill, I don't know of any source that taught that. They would need some Bible verses to get their ideas from, anyway, unless they got their dieas directly from the apostles. I've never seen any evidence for either source teaching the pre-trib rapture doctrine.
     
  3. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    2,662
    Likes Received:
    0
    Throughout past centuries, all Christians believed CHrist will come again, also, they believed they have to face tribulations first before Christ comes. None of them hear the teaching of split or phases of the second advent. This doctrine was not yet exist till 19th Century.

    By the way, yes, I heard Catholic Jesuit Riverba taught split coming as 3 1/2 years. But, nearly all Catholics believed Christ shall come again at once. Rivera's teaching was not much effect upon Christians in that time.

    John Darby much more aggressive spread his new teaching upon Christians by visited Canada & America several times. That's how pretribulation doctrine become popular at the draw of 20th Century.

    I rather follow what the Bible saying than what men saying according to Colossians 2:8.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    DeafPosttrib: "John Darby much more aggressive spread his new teaching upon Christians by visited Canada & America several times. That's how pretribulation doctrine become popular at the draw of 20th Century."

    What i like is how John Darby when he was in
    the Americas in the 1870s selling the
    pretribulation rapture/resurrection found
    a time machine. He went back to 1611
    and talked the King James Versions translators
    into changing "apostasy" in
    2 Thessalonains 2:3 to "falling away".
    The KJV translators had "apostasy" in their
    dictionary (in fact, the same Greek words
    is translated "apostasy" in other locations
    in the KJV). Then John Darby went back
    to six other versons of the Bible translated
    before the KJV and talked them into
    using "departure" in 2 Thess 2:3.

    If you think my post is science fiction,
    it is no more SF than is Brother DeafPosttrib's
    statement about John Darby, just cleverer [​IMG]

    DeafPosttrib: "Throughout past centuries, all Christians believed CHrist will come again, also, they believed they have to face tribulations first before Christ comes."

    Amen, Brother DeafPosttrib -- Preach it! [​IMG]

    But no true Christian ever believed that
    they would have to face God's wrath.
    BTW God's wrath is expressed in the term
    "tribulation period" (AKA; 70th week of Daniel,
    "the week", the Day of the Lord, etc.)
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/Ed.gif>

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2002
    Messages:
    15,715
    Likes Received:
    0
    Link: "My problem with the pretrib rapture teaching is that
    I just can't find one whit of scriptural evidence to back it up."

    The reason i believe the pretriublation rapture/resurrection
    teaching is that i find no ot one whit of scriputral
    evidence against it. I just posted about John Darby. I've
    never read John Darby's books. I get my pretribulation
    rapture/resurrection teachings straight from the Bible.
    My pretrib teachings are all over this Baptist Board including
    the archives.

    Here is one of them repeated so as to be on top.

    -------------------------------
    I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period.
    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath).
    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)

    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
    in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

    "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
    shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
    And the people of the prince who is to
    come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
    The end of it shall be with a flood,
    And till the end of the war desolations
    are determined.
    27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
    many for one week; But in the middle
    of the week He shall bring an end
    to sacrifice and offering. And on
    the wing of abominations shall be
    one who makes desolate, Even until
    the consummation, which is determined,
    Is poured out on the desolate."

    Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
    refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
    to the "prince that shall come".
    Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
    are divided in the middle by the abomination
    of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
    to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
    FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

    But I would not have you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
    that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
    no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
    again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
    will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of
    the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
    unto the coming of the Lord shall
    not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
    heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
    and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain
    shall be caught up together with them
    in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
    and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
    1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

    1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
    ye have no need that I write unto you.
    2 For yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so cometh as
    a thief in the night.
    3 For when they shall say,
    Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
    cometh upon them, as travail upon
    a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
    that that day should overtake you as a thief.
    5 Ye are all the children of light,
    and the children of the day: we are
    not of the night, nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
    and they that be drunken are drunken
    in the night.
    8 But let us, who are of the day,
    be sober, putting on the breastplate
    of faith and love; and for an helmet,
    the hope of salvation.
    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 Who died for us, that, whether
    we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
    11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
    and edify one another, even as also ye do.

    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)
    FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

    Now we beseech you, brethren,
    by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
    or be troubled, neither by spirit,
    nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
    as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
    for that day shall not come, except
    there come a falling away first,
    and that man of sin be revealed,
    the son of perdition;

    I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
    The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
    the Tribulation period.
    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath).
    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)
     
  6. Link

    Link
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2004
    Messages:
    695
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ed Edwards,

    I read your message, but I still do not see any scripture that places the rapture before the tribulation. The fact that Paul warned the Thesalonians not to think the time had come before the man of sin was revealed indicates that he expected Christians to be around when the man of sin was revealed. If it were not posible in Paul's view of things for the Thessalonians he was writing to to be around when the man of sin was revealed, why would he have written it.


    Ed Edwards wrote,
    **********************

    "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
    shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
    And the people of the prince who is to
    come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
    The end of it shall be with a flood,
    And till the end of the war desolations
    are determined.
    27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
    many for one week; But in the middle
    of the week He shall bring an end
    to sacrifice and offering. And on
    the wing of abominations shall be
    one who makes desolate, Even until
    the consummation, which is determined,
    Is poured out on the desolate."

    Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
    refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
    to the "prince that shall come".
    Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years are divided in the middle by the abomination
    of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
    to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

    ***************

    First of all, I am not objecting to considering the prince that will come as referring to a prince other than Messiah in this context. But I would like to point out that whether the 'he' is capitalized is irrelevant. Translators chose whether to capitalize it, and if any KJVO people want to get on my case, the KJV does not capitlize 'he' in reference to Deity, either.

    Also, where is wrath poured out before the middle of the Tribulation. Some people believe in a pre-wrath rapture, during the middle of the Tribulation. I do not agree with that, but I sure do not see any scripture indicating a rapture before the Beast is revealed.
    ********************
    The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
    FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):
    *********************

    Jesus spoke of two resurrections. Blessed is he who partakes of the first resurrection. Two resurrections occur at the end of the whole story about the Tribulation, the beast, etc. at the _end_ of the book of Revelation. The first resurrection occurs long before the Second, but in the chronoloyg of Revelation, it is still after the Tribulation. I do not think Revelation is completely chronological, but I do think both resurrections are at the end of the book for a reason.

    ***********
    The rapture/resurrection will occur without
    previous notice and before the Tribulation period
    (wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
    1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):
    *****************

    The passage says the day is not to overtake us as a theif. If Christians are watching and see what the man of sin is doing, then they should not be overtaken as a theif.

    Of course people who went up to an altar one time and repeated a prayer, and then went out and lived like the Devil and never bore any fruit, but went to church enough to hear that they would be raptured out before the Tribulation might think, "The preacher said I would be raptured out with the rest of the people who repeated a prayer, and it hasn't happened yet, so this man must not be the AntiChrist."


    **************
    The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
    is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
    (time of the Anti-messiah)
    FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

    Now we beseech you, brethren,
    by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
    or be troubled, neither by spirit,
    nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
    as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
    for that day shall not come, except
    there come a falling away first,
    and that man of sin be revealed,
    the son of perdition;
    *********************

    Please include verse 4
    4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    If the man of sin does an 'abomination of desolation' in the middle of the Tribulation, then isn't it likely that this is what verse 4 is talking about? The implication seems to be that the rapture will not take place until AFTER the man of sin has claimed to be God. How does this square with the idea of everyone being raptured out just as the man of sin comes on the scene. You do see the man of sin and the beast as the same figure don't you?

    Also, the passage does NOT say that these things will happen without previous notice. Paul says that he already warned the Thessalonians about these things. He also says that the day of the Lord should not overtake us as a theif. We may not know the day or hour, but we are supposed to keep our eyes open for the seasons.

    So I do not see where you have proven your case. Where is the passage that says that the saints are gone when the man of sin takes his position of power or claims to be God? I don't see it in the Bible? Where do the saints in Revelation come from? Why doesn't Revelation mention the rapture at the beginning of the book?

    You have shown verses for the rule of the prince that shall come, and you have shown veres for the rapture, but where are the verses that the rapture takes place before the tribulation. That is what I see no evidence for.
     
  7. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2002
    Messages:
    10,988
    Likes Received:
    79
    We all agree that Darby made the doctrine popular and is the reason that it became widespread in American theology.

    Martin Luther thought that Christians would go through the Tribulation because he thought that the pope was The Anti-Christ instead of an Anti-Christ.
     
  8. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    It always brings a smile to my face when I see someone argue against pretribulationism by saying that the Bible teaches the church will go through tribulations. They say that as if somehow the pretribulationists deny that. They don't deny it.

    One common error is to mistake tribulations for the Tribulation. Of course the church will go through tribulations. No one disputes that. But the church will not go through the Tribulation.
     
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Ed, you say "no true Christian ever believed that
    they would have to face God's wrath". Who made you judge over who was a "true believer" or not? There are some who would say that the followers of Darbyism are not true believers. Haven't they assumed the same position that you have in your judgment.

    In your assumed role as judge can you render judgment on the following passage which speaks of God chastening His children:

    Hebrews 12:6-8
    6. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
    7. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
    8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

    Also why does Jesus Christ tell His followers: In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world? [John 16:33, KJV]

    Also would you please exegete Daniel 9:25-27 for us. I looked at it and can't find any mention of the "Great Tribulation".
    :D
     
  10. danrusdad

    danrusdad
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2004
    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    0
    Where is the Day of the Lord ever equated in the scripture with the Great Tribulation?

    Where is the 70th week ever in scripture ever called the 'tribulation'?

    Theses are the same assumptions that all pre-tribbers make and NOT ONE can justify FROM SCRIPTURE.

    There is a difference between general tribulation and the Great Tribulation to be sure. In that pre-tribbers are correct. However, there is also a difference between the Great Tribulation (what the WORLD does to BELIEVERS) and the Day of the Lord (what GOD does to UNBELIEVERS). Mt 24 makes this clear.

    To equate these two is to fabricate a doctrine from scripture based on a prior commitment to pre-tribualtionism.
     
  11. Matt Black

    Matt Black
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2003
    Messages:
    9,141
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think part of the problem with the pre-trib rapture theory is that it is very much the product of Western evangelicalism. Try selling the doctrine to an evangelical in, say, Sudan or Pakistan, and they'll doubtless laugh in your face. The Great Tribulation? Yep, they've had it for years there. Don't you think they'd've been raptured by now...?

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  12. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    22,028
    Likes Received:
    1
    Exactly. The Church is going through tribulation right now - all over the world, Christians are being persecuted, murdered, and slain because they will not renounce the Name of Jesus Christ (but because it is not happening in the West, it is so forgotten).

    The difference is, as you point out, the Great Tribulation. We are not in the Great Tribulation yet and the Church will be raptured before then.
     
  13. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    The fact that some believe they are living in hte Great Tribulation shows just how great the lack of biblical knowledge is. There is nothing in Sudan, Pakistan, or anywhere else that comes close to the judgments of God in Scripture. All we need to do is read the Scripture. We will see it clearly.

    That does not mitigate the suffering and tribulations of Christian all over the world throughout church history. But it certainly cannot be identified as the Tribulation becasue it just doesn't match ... or God didn't know what he was talking about when he revealed the Tribulation to us.
     
  14. av1611jim

    av1611jim
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,511
    Likes Received:
    0
    Just because a particular preacher (Darby) made a particular doctrine "popular" (well known) does not make it false.
    To follow this EXACT line of reasoning one would have to apply it to the doctrine of justification by faith alone. It was not so well known (popular) in the days of Luther. But is it false?

    Whichever one it was who tries this tactic is not wise. (DPT)

    In His service;
    Jim
     
  15. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    It isn't. The Tribulatation is a part of the DOL.

     
  16. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2002
    Messages:
    10,988
    Likes Received:
    79
    One wonders if it had not been for Darby and Scofield if this doctrine would have spread throughout American Fundamental and Evangelical theology?

    We all agree that Jesus is returning for a Second time.

    I think the timing of the Second Coming is given by John in Revelation chapter 20 when John writes that it will be after an angel binds Satan in the pit for 1000 years.
     
  17. mioque

    mioque
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    3,899
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Just because a particular preacher (Darby) made a particular doctrine "popular" (well known) does not make it false.
    To follow this EXACT line of reasoning one would have to apply it to the doctrine of justification by faith alone. It was not so well known (popular) in the days of Luther. But is it false?"
    "
    Key difference, the doctrine of justification by faith alone can be easily and clearly traced back through centuries of theological works all the way back to Augustinus of Hippo Regis at least. Nobody published anything about this whole, all True Christians(tm) suddenly disappear into thin air thing prior to Darby. This doesn't make it wrong persé. But it certainly is a theological novelty.
     
  18. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    22,028
    Likes Received:
    1
    Actually, the Second Coming is in Rev. 19 - BEFORE the 1000 year reign.

    [11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

    [12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

    [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    [14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    [15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    [16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    [17] And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

    [18] That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
     
  19. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    The folks in Europe have not bought into Darbyism. It is virtually non-existent there. If anyone has noticed most of the crazy theologies have started in America first. If it were not for Scofield Darbyism would have died. Sometime read what Spurgeon thought of it. Americans are quick to buy into almost anything (that includes almost everything outside of theology too).
     
  20. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2002
    Messages:
    10,988
    Likes Received:
    79
    Actually, LE, all of that goes together and leads into chapter 20 which says that when Satan is locked up for 1000 years that that is the first resurrection. And everyone in the world agrees that Jesus returns at the first resurrection.

    That is what is so illogical about the theory that Darby and Scofield spread--it does not line up with Scripture.
     

Share This Page

Loading...