Why the usual tired old "Darby" rebuttal can RIP....

I read that the pre-trib rapture theory was invented by a Roman Catholic priest writing in the period afte rthe Reformation started, arguing against the theories going around that the pope was the antiChrist. I think he was before the preacher mentioned in this article.

My problem with the pretrib rapture teaching is that I just can't find one whit of scriptural evidence to back it up. If it is true, why isn't it in the Bible? Where do we get the idea that he saints won't go through the tribulation? 'Not appointed unto wrath' just doesn't cut it. Are the tribulational saints appointed unto wrath? Revelation has _BOTH_ resurrections AFTER Christ returns.

Millinealist positions are very ancient. Papias, who may have known the apostle John was apparently a millinealist. In the time of Eusebius in the 300's, amillinealism was starting to catch on. But Eusebius, to be fair, had to admit all of the ancient evidence for the belief in millinealism, which was opposed to his own viewpoint. Justin Martyr also believed that Christ would set up his kingdom in Jerusalem on the earth., Belief in the return of Christ and Christ setting up a kingdom on the earth, an a thousand years reign on earth is very ancient. As for pre-mill, I don't know of any source that taught that. They would need some Bible verses to get their ideas from, anyway, unless they got their dieas directly from the apostles. I've never seen any evidence for either source teaching the pre-trib rapture doctrine.

 

Throughout past centuries, all Christians believed CHrist will come again, also, they believed they have to face tribulations first before Christ comes. None of them hear the teaching of split or phases of the second advent. This doctrine was not yet exist till 19th Century.

By the way, yes, I heard Catholic Jesuit Riverba taught split coming as 3 1/2 years. But, nearly all Catholics believed Christ shall come again at once. Rivera's teaching was not much effect upon Christians in that time.

John Darby much more aggressive spread his new teaching upon Christians by visited Canada & America several times. That's how pretribulation doctrine become popular at the draw of 20th Century.

I rather follow what the Bible saying than what men saying according to Colossians 2:8.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

DeafPosttrib: "John Darby much more aggressive spread his new teaching upon Christians by visited Canada & America several times. That's how pretribulation doctrine become popular at the draw of 20th Century."

What i like is how John Darby when he was in
the Americas in the 1870s selling the
pretribulation rapture/resurrection found
a time machine. He went back to 1611
and talked the King James Versions translators
into changing "apostasy" in
2 Thessalonains 2:3 to "falling away".
The KJV translators had "apostasy" in their
dictionary (in fact, the same Greek words
is translated "apostasy" in other locations
in the KJV). Then John Darby went back
to six other versons of the Bible translated
before the KJV and talked them into
using "departure" in 2 Thess 2:3.

If you think my post is science fiction,
it is no more SF than is Brother DeafPosttrib's
statement about John Darby, just cleverer

DeafPosttrib: "Throughout past centuries, all Christians believed CHrist will come again, also, they believed they have to face tribulations first before Christ comes."

Amen, Brother DeafPosttrib -- Preach it!

But no true Christian ever believed that
they would have to face God's wrath.
BTW God's wrath is expressed in the term
"tribulation period" (AKA; 70th week of Daniel,
"the week", the Day of the Lord, etc.)

 

Link: "My problem with the pretrib rapture teaching is that
I just can't find one whit of scriptural evidence to back it up."

The reason i believe the pretriublation rapture/resurrection
teaching is that i find no ot one whit of scriputral
evidence against it. I just posted about John Darby. I've
never read John Darby's books. I get my pretribulation
rapture/resurrection teachings straight from the Bible.
My pretrib teachings are all over this Baptist Board including
the archives.

Here is one of them repeated so as to be on top.

-------------------------------
I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to
come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations
are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
many for one week; But in the middle
of the week He shall bring an end
to sacrifice and offering. And on
the wing of abominations shall be
one who makes desolate, Even until
the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
to the "prince that shall come".
Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
are divided in the middle by the abomination
of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of
the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
unto the coming of the Lord shall
not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so cometh as
a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say,
Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
cometh upon them, as travail upon
a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light,
and the children of the day: we are
not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
and they that be drunken are drunken
in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day,
be sober, putting on the breastplate
of faith and love; and for an helmet,
the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether
we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled, neither by spirit,
nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except
there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;

I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

 

Ed Edwards,

I read your message, but I still do not see any scripture that places the rapture before the tribulation. The fact that Paul warned the Thesalonians not to think the time had come before the man of sin was revealed indicates that he expected Christians to be around when the man of sin was revealed. If it were not posible in Paul's view of things for the Thessalonians he was writing to to be around when the man of sin was revealed, why would he have written it.


Ed Edwards wrote,
**********************

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to
come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations
are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
many for one week; But in the middle
of the week He shall bring an end
to sacrifice and offering. And on
the wing of abominations shall be
one who makes desolate, Even until
the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
to the "prince that shall come".
Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years are divided in the middle by the abomination
of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

***************

First of all, I am not objecting to considering the prince that will come as referring to a prince other than Messiah in this context. But I would like to point out that whether the 'he' is capitalized is irrelevant. Translators chose whether to capitalize it, and if any KJVO people want to get on my case, the KJV does not capitlize 'he' in reference to Deity, either.

Also, where is wrath poured out before the middle of the Tribulation. Some people believe in a pre-wrath rapture, during the middle of the Tribulation. I do not agree with that, but I sure do not see any scripture indicating a rapture before the Beast is revealed.
********************
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):
*********************

Jesus spoke of two resurrections. Blessed is he who partakes of the first resurrection. Two resurrections occur at the end of the whole story about the Tribulation, the beast, etc. at the _end_ of the book of Revelation. The first resurrection occurs long before the Second, but in the chronoloyg of Revelation, it is still after the Tribulation. I do not think Revelation is completely chronological, but I do think both resurrections are at the end of the book for a reason.

***********
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):
*****************

The passage says the day is not to overtake us as a theif. If Christians are watching and see what the man of sin is doing, then they should not be overtaken as a theif.

Of course people who went up to an altar one time and repeated a prayer, and then went out and lived like the Devil and never bore any fruit, but went to church enough to hear that they would be raptured out before the Tribulation might think, "The preacher said I would be raptured out with the rest of the people who repeated a prayer, and it hasn't happened yet, so this man must not be the AntiChrist."


**************
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled, neither by spirit,
nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except
there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;
*********************

Please include verse 4
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

If the man of sin does an 'abomination of desolation' in the middle of the Tribulation, then isn't it likely that this is what verse 4 is talking about? The implication seems to be that the rapture will not take place until AFTER the man of sin has claimed to be God. How does this square with the idea of everyone being raptured out just as the man of sin comes on the scene. You do see the man of sin and the beast as the same figure don't you?

Also, the passage does NOT say that these things will happen without previous notice. Paul says that he already warned the Thessalonians about these things. He also says that the day of the Lord should not overtake us as a theif. We may not know the day or hour, but we are supposed to keep our eyes open for the seasons.

So I do not see where you have proven your case. Where is the passage that says that the saints are gone when the man of sin takes his position of power or claims to be God? I don't see it in the Bible? Where do the saints in Revelation come from? Why doesn't Revelation mention the rapture at the beginning of the book?

You have shown verses for the rule of the prince that shall come, and you have shown veres for the rapture, but where are the verses that the rapture takes place before the tribulation. That is what I see no evidence for.

 

We all agree that Darby made the doctrine popular and is the reason that it became widespread in American theology.

Martin Luther thought that Christians would go through the Tribulation because he thought that the pope was The Anti-Christ instead of an Anti-Christ.

 

It always brings a smile to my face when I see someone argue against pretribulationism by saying that the Bible teaches the church will go through tribulations. They say that as if somehow the pretribulationists deny that. They don't deny it.

One common error is to mistake tribulations for the Tribulation. Of course the church will go through tribulations. No one disputes that. But the church will not go through the Tribulation.

 

Ed, you say "no true Christian ever believed that
they would have to face God's wrath". Who made you judge over who was a "true believer" or not? There are some who would say that the followers of Darbyism are not true believers. Haven't they assumed the same position that you have in your judgment.

In your assumed role as judge can you render judgment on the following passage which speaks of God chastening His children:

Hebrews 12:6-8
6. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Also why does Jesus Christ tell His followers: In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world? [John 16:33, KJV]

Also would you please exegete Daniel 9:25-27 for us. I looked at it and can't find any mention of the "Great Tribulation".

 

Where is the Day of the Lord ever equated in the scripture with the Great Tribulation?

Where is the 70th week ever in scripture ever called the 'tribulation'?

Theses are the same assumptions that all pre-tribbers make and NOT ONE can justify FROM SCRIPTURE.

There is a difference between general tribulation and the Great Tribulation to be sure. In that pre-tribbers are correct. However, there is also a difference between the Great Tribulation (what the WORLD does to BELIEVERS) and the Day of the Lord (what GOD does to UNBELIEVERS). Mt 24 makes this clear.

To equate these two is to fabricate a doctrine from scripture based on a prior commitment to pre-tribualtionism.

 

I think part of the problem with the pre-trib rapture theory is that it is very much the product of Western evangelicalism. Try selling the doctrine to an evangelical in, say, Sudan or Pakistan, and they'll doubtless laugh in your face. The Great Tribulation? Yep, they've had it for years there. Don't you think they'd've been raptured by now...?

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

The fact that some believe they are living in hte Great Tribulation shows just how great the lack of biblical knowledge is. There is nothing in Sudan, Pakistan, or anywhere else that comes close to the judgments of God in Scripture. All we need to do is read the Scripture. We will see it clearly.

That does not mitigate the suffering and tribulations of Christian all over the world throughout church history. But it certainly cannot be identified as the Tribulation becasue it just doesn't match ... or God didn't know what he was talking about when he revealed the Tribulation to us.

 

Just because a particular preacher (Darby) made a particular doctrine "popular" (well known) does not make it false.
To follow this EXACT line of reasoning one would have to apply it to the doctrine of justification by faith alone. It was not so well known (popular) in the days of Luther. But is it false?

Whichever one it was who tries this tactic is not wise. (DPT)

In His service;
Jim

 

It isn't. The Tribulatation is a part of the DOL.

 

One wonders if it had not been for Darby and Scofield if this doctrine would have spread throughout American Fundamental and Evangelical theology?

We all agree that Jesus is returning for a Second time.

I think the timing of the Second Coming is given by John in Revelation chapter 20 when John writes that it will be after an angel binds Satan in the pit for 1000 years.

 

"Just because a particular preacher (Darby) made a particular doctrine "popular" (well known) does not make it false.
To follow this EXACT line of reasoning one would have to apply it to the doctrine of justification by faith alone. It was not so well known (popular) in the days of Luther. But is it false?"
"
Key difference, the doctrine of justification by faith alone can be easily and clearly traced back through centuries of theological works all the way back to Augustinus of Hippo Regis at least. Nobody published anything about this whole, all True Christians(tm) suddenly disappear into thin air thing prior to Darby. This doesn't make it wrong persé. But it certainly is a theological novelty.

 

The folks in Europe have not bought into Darbyism. It is virtually non-existent there. If anyone has noticed most of the crazy theologies have started in America first. If it were not for Scofield Darbyism would have died. Sometime read what Spurgeon thought of it. Americans are quick to buy into almost anything (that includes almost everything outside of theology too).

 

Actually, LE, all of that goes together and leads into chapter 20 which says that when Satan is locked up for 1000 years that that is the first resurrection. And everyone in the world agrees that Jesus returns at the first resurrection.

That is what is so illogical about the theory that Darby and Scofield spread--it does not line up with Scripture.