Why? Why?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by OldRegular, Mar 4, 2014.

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  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular
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    On another thread the following exchange of opinion took place:

    Now I expect that every person on this Forum believes that Israel and the Jews were chosen by God. However, we learn from the Scripture that not all were chosen to Salvation. God tells the Prophet Elijah when he had his pity party in 1st Kings 19:18. Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

    God through the Apostle Paul reminds us of this truth in Romans 11:4. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

    God again uses the Apostle Paul to teach us that not all Israel were elected to salvation:

    Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

    Romans 11:5-7
    5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
    6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
    7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded


    As noted above people in general on this Forum believe that God chose Israel for His own purpose. In doing so we know little to nothing of the eternal destiny of the vast majority of people on earth during that period of God's dealing with Israel. Given the above Scripture showing that God chose only some out of Israel to Salvation why is it that many on this Forum resist so adamantly the Biblical teaching that God still choses those He will bring to Salvation in Jesus Christ?
     
  2. Van

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    1) God does chose those He will save by setting them apart in Christ based on crediting their faith in Christ.

    2) The children of the promise are regarded as seed. Under the new covenant, those indwelt with the Spirit of Promise are children of the promise.

    3) Note that the election of the 7,000 who had not bowed the knee to Baal were elected conditionally. Then note scripture says we too, under the New Covenant were elected in the same way, i.e. conditionally.

    Bottom line, Why Why do so many on this Forum resist so adamantly the Biblical teachings of Paul?
     
  3. OldRegular

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    Scripture please!

    You lost me here!

    Again, prove that conditional election by Scripture!

    Just what basis do you use to determine those parts of the Bible you believe and those parts you do not believe?
     
  4. salzer mtn

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    why is it that many on this Forum resist so adamantly the Biblical teaching that God still choses those He will bring to Salvation in Jesus Christ? People hate what they cannot control. People will not have a sovereign God to reign over them that not only knows the beginning from the end but determines all things from the beginning to the end. Part of the Adamic nature is to be your own God. People will let God be sovereign over what goes on in heaven, the sea, the animal kingdom, and the election in the future of the Jews but not themselves. People of today are still rising up in rebellion as they did when Christ was crucified crying, We will not have this man to rule over us.
     
  5. preacher4truth

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    Bingo, that is EXACTLY what it is. :thumbs:
     
  6. Yeshua1

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    we don't , as we uphold the doctrine of divine Election, so would say that you would have to answer your own question!
     
  7. Yeshua1

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    many want their faith in jesus to cause the election, not the election to be the cause for their faith!
     
  8. OldRegular

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    I believe you state that correctly.
     
  9. JamesL

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    Neither side is even close to an accurate understanding of election. Both sides are completely out of context, arguing whether a bicycle has three wheels or four
     
  10. Iconoclast

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    Well James....explain your understanding of the biblical teaching of election as you say everyone does not understand it.
     
  11. OldRegular

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    Hope you are not holding your breath. Driving without Oxygen can be dangerous!
     
  12. sag38

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    Should this not be in another section? I get sick of coming here and finding people beating this same old dead horse over and over again. Almost everything posted seems to lead toward an argument about election.
     
  13. OldRegular

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    The moderator is free to move it at his discretion!
     
  14. Van

    Van
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    You have been saved by grace through faith...

    Argument from personal incredulity.

    The referenced 7000 chosen because they had not bowed their knee proved conditional election. Then scripture says "in the same way" i.e. conditional election, the remnant exists today. Thus this passage proves conditional election for salvation, as does James 2:5 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13

    Another ad hominem, charging me with picking and choosing which verses I believe, when I believe them all.
     
  15. Yeshua1

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    God said that HE had been the one to reserve to himself a faithful remnant from out of national isreal, and you cannot use isreal to prove this'truth", as the nation of isreal was elected byGgod, placed under old covevnat, but those of us in the church are elected out individual basis!

    NOT all isrealites under national election was saved by God, but ALL in indiviual election in church has been!
     
  16. OldRegular

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    I am not big on paraphrases!

    Still lost me!

    You are not understanding the Scripture! Notice what God says:

    1st Kings 19:18. Yet I have left me seven thousand

    Romans 11:4. I have reserved to myself seven thousand men,


    God left and God reserved!

    Still using fancy words I see. Take a look at what you said:

    I believe that you reject the Biblical teaching of Election. Therefore, I assume you resist the teaching of the Revelation God gave to the Apostle Paul. Why? The implication I draw is that you simply reject what Paul says. That is a logical conclusion given the statement you made. Of course it could be that you are accusing others on the Forum of picking and choosing what they believe or not believe!
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    :laugh::laugh::laugh: I have not seen it as yet:thumbs:
     
  18. Iconoclast

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    SAG,

    the OP started with these words;

    So why are you surprised that election is spoken of? Election is a vital doctrine throughout scripture.Many want to discuss and learn about it.
     
  19. psalms109:31

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    The ruler of the universe says to believe in Jesus to be saved. The sovereign Lord wants no one to die, but rather them to repent and live.

    To trust in Jesus to be saved makes us God ruling over him sounds like the argument serpent used in the garden, except it is attempt to make us feel guilty for trusting in God word will save us. We believers do not want to rule over God, we want to be ruled by Him and we do that by trusting in Him

    If we ruled over God then we can make our own way to be saved and tell God that's my condition, but the only way to the Father is through Jesus there is no other way. God rules and tells us the way to Him not us telling Him our way.

    To trust in Jesus, submitting to God, repent turn to God through Jesus Christ makes us God is a foolish argument.


    We are predestined in Christ not apart from Him.

    Paul never told an unbeliever that they was chosen before the foundation of the world, but he said it to believers.

    In Christ we are saved past present and future, being saved in Christ before the foundation of the world shows that what adam did does not effect those in Christ no matter what they did in the past. It is assurance.

    Out side of Christ I was headed for destruction in Christ I became a new creation predestined. The old creation who we once was is dead the new creation in Christ is what is chosen before the foundation of the world.

    I will never try to convince an unbeliever they were chosen before the foundation of the world because it is a lie.

    They believed God and was credited righteousness, Christ righteousness.

    Romans 4
    New International Version (NIV)
    Abraham Justified by Faith

    4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

    4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

    Psalm 73:28
    But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.
     
    #19 psalms109:31, Mar 6, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 6, 2014
  20. Rippon

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    Others have asked and so will I. James, what makes you so sure your evaluation of biblical election is so spot-on? Can you tell us specifically what your take is? Are you following the lead of any theologian of the past or present? Or have you arrived at your stance all by yourself? I have the opinion that your position is not so accurate or in proper biblical context.

    We await your theological conclusions on the matter of election.
     
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