Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by DaChaser1, Jan 14, 2012.
In regards to salvation, as contrasted to what Cals teach/believe?
Seriously Jesusfan who is it you believe you are fooling?
As I've explained to you before:
God would be just to condemn us all to hell. Or as one Calvinist put it, "The wonder of God's mercy and grace is NOT that He doesn't save everyone; it is that He even saves ANYONE!"
This is the very essence of what I believe, even as a non-Calvinist. God is not in any way morally obligated to save anyone because we deserve it. Again, this is a point upon which we can all agree.
However, God has obligated Himself, both morally and judicially, to save whosoever will come (believe). Not because they deserve it, but because He sent forth His Son to be a propitiation for sins of whole world, which is to be applied only through faith. His universal call to "every creature" to faith and repentance obligates him to save whosoever repents and believes. The doctrine that teaches that God only grants this ability to willingly repent and believe to a select few while appearing to call "every creature" is what causes the non-Calvinists to cry, "Foul!"
I don't believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because he condemns certain people to hell. I believe the Calvinistic view of God is unjust because He offers a pardon to all mankind while only granted a few of them the ability to receive it, all the while expressing a desire for all to come to repentance and a frustration for those who remain unwilling.
It is deceptive to offer someone a gift you fully know they cannot willingly receive. Especially if you, the giver, are the one who determines the receivers natural abilities. That type of offer cannot be geniune!
Most of your misunderstanding lies within the fact that you misrepresent and don't cling to nor understand the Biblical truth that it is God alone who chose us. Your teaching is specious and is the same as Hermanszoons, who also believed as you do, that it is man that chooses, which teaching has lended itself to much error within the church, and to a false unbiblical theology of faith.
We've explained this before to you as well.
To the OP. It is only fair because they deem their theology to be more fair and reasonable. Nothing in the Bible says a thing about what is fair, but rather speaks of what is Grace and Mercy, and to whom the One is that Sovereignly bestows this unconditionally upon man, which of course is God Himself.
One problem with the non-cals and Arminians is that the way God is displayed Biblically as Sovereign is to them "unfair" "unreasonable" and thus they reason cannot be true, so subsequently their theology is based off of this premise, rather than off of Biblical doctrine as the sole premise.
This is exactly how Jakob Hermanszoon developed his theology; off of the clear teachings of Bible via Calvin with an apparent belief that God in this true light Biblically is unfair to mankind. Therefore the freewill of man began in his theology to supplant the Sovereignty of God. Calvins theology on the other hand stemmed simply from Scriptures, wasn't reactionary, accepted Sovereignty, Election, Predestination as presented in the Scriptures in full trust of Gods choosing, and didn't box Sovereign God into presuppositions of what is fair and unfair.
Such erroneous teachings of arminianism and non-cal theologies (some) render man into a position that said has a right to choose and has then a right to God and heaven.
We can conclude that most of the problem lies within who is deemed as the one choosing. Calvinist theology rightly asserts it was God who chose us, not the other way around. Arms and non-cals think it unfair in God choosing, and that really man chooses. This is contrary to Scripture. Paul embraced this truth that God chose, and it pushed him both to suffer and to preach the Gospel, 2 Timothy 2:8-10.
Fooling about what?
Basically, IF you see man as being ruined by the Fall, would embrace calvinism, as need to have Election on basis of God choosing to save us
IF man just marred/damaged, but still having enough free will remaining to chose/reject jesus, take NON cal version!
There is a miconception among some Christians; in that God is fair. God is not fair. If He were then we would all go to hell.
I for one am thankful God isn't fair.
...and that they have a right to heaven and God and to choose all on their own freewill.
2 big differences that cannot be reconciled here...
cals hold to Will of God determines salvation, non that will of man does
Cals hold that man ruined by the fall/lost free will, Ons do not, Man hurt/butstill have it!
Being in the FW camp, I don't think I deserve heaven. If I got what I truly deserved/earned, I'd be in hell right now. But thank God, in His mercy, He sought me out and saved me.
So you're saying He chose you then?
Yessireee!! I have never denied election....
Did God elect you based upon Him doing it directly, By act of His Will, or by Him doing that per seeing your faith response to Christ?
Look, all I can tell you is this; "I once was lost, but now I'm found, Was blind, but now I see."
God kept drawing me for years, but I rebelled. One day, after seeking His Grace and Mercy, He, in pity and in love, saved me and took me, an undeserving sinner, under His wing.
Amen, as ALL of us hve to come to God through Jesus as underserving sinners, saved Only by His grace!
So then your "freewill" chose nothing, as it was He who did the choosing.
Your will was bound in sin, as others, prior to salvation. John 8.
When you get to the "nuts n bolts" of either side of this debate, it's the same thing. We are saved by grace through faith, and not of yourself, but it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. Amen?
The only thing I know is that God drawed me for years, but I kept on being stupid. I heard a radio message from Daniel, and came to realize that would be me if God didn't save me. I sought after Him, thinking if I would make myself "good enough", He'd save me. I'd quit "this" thinking He'd save me; "FLOP". I'd then quit "that"; "FLOP". It was when I quit trying, and started trusting, that He saved me on May 24, 2007.
Yes, you came to realize He had saved you, not that you chose Him. Thus, freewill is meaningless. He does the Saving, all of it, including the choosing.