Widows

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Walls, Feb 14, 2004.

  1. Walls

    Walls
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    The subject was brought up on another thread. Who is responsible for taking care of widows, Governments or Church?

    In our church we believe that you are to owe no debt. Therefore we highly encourage owning property without mortgage.

    They wouldn't have to worry about paying for their house, because their husband would have already taken care of that before his passing. We would have to help out on the yearly taxes, shouldn't be too big of a burden for a church.

    Her monthly bills would consist of electricty and phone, maybe liability on her vehicle if she was capable of driving. Still a relatively small amount. Not to hard for a church.

    We all have gardens and raise livestock for food. All the ladies would give a portion of their food from the garden, or eggs, or meat if they had something butchered. Between us all, they would lack no food.

    We encourage heating with wood. So in the winter time, every family would give her wood to carry her through the winter.

    In the event of health problems, we would take offerings to cover the expense.

    We have plenty of young boys who would be happy to maintain the lawn and should repairs be needed the men of the church would pitch in and get it fixed.

    If by some chance the husband failed to provide a debt free home for his wife, the church would put her up in the missions quarters.

    I should mention, that if the widow would have any surviving children and weren't a part of our church, they should, out of honour for thier parents, help in every way they can, rather than dump their parents into the governments lap and turn them over to a nursing home until they die.


    So you see, you can be supported by the church without the aid of big daddy government. The problem is that churches and Christians quit fulfilling their God given obligation and cried to another source for help.

    Sounds like the children of Israel.

    Is it no wonder God says: 2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
     
  2. Ed Edwards

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    Walls: "Who is responsible for taking care of widows, Governments or Church?"

    Priority 1 taking care of the widows: their family
    Priority 2 taking care of the widows: their church

    What i think we were talking about is in the USofA
    we are all heavily taxed to support Social Security,
    Medicare, Medicade, and other government programs.
    Why toss this advantage aside?

    Matthew 10:16 (KJV1769):
    Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves:
    be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.


    [​IMG]
     
  3. Thankful

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    Thank you, Walls, for explaining this.

    According to the Bible, a widow's family should take care of her and if the family cannot or she has no family, then the Church steps in.

    Your church must be a very rich church to be able to do as you described. However, the widows in our church live in a city. There may be some with gardens, but certainly no livestock.

    Yes, our church will be sure that no one goes hungry or do without the necessities of life.

    From my viewpoint, I think of a widow continuing to be independent and not having to depend on her family or the church. I feel this way because as a widow I did not want to be dependent on anyone.

    Further, much to the dismay of my brothers and me, my mother "jumped" into a nursing center. She would not live with us even when we begged her to live with one of us. My mother is living on the benefits provided by my father who paid Social Security from the time it was founded until he was 70 years old. He did not accept benefits until he was 70.

    By accepting Social Security Payments each month, I do not believe that a widow is doing anything wrong, either she or her husband have paid dearly for those benefits and earned them.
     
  4. Thankful

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    No matter who one cries to for help it is still the same people who are footing the bill.

    We are the government. We pay taxes. We provide for widows through our donations and our taxes.
     
  5. Thankful

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    (This is a quote from another thread, but I believe it is more appropriate to answer it here.)

    This is an interesting statement. Several times during my lifetime, I have known people who tried to opt out of the social security system and could not.

    Currently, I receive a social security benefit and I have a part time job as organist at my church. Social Security is taken out of my check and the church has to match that amount. I receive no benefit from that money as it is not credited to me in any way, nor is it refunded to me. The church treasurer stated that by law he is required to take the money out....so I am making a donation to the social security fund.
     
  6. Ed Edwards

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    I did some arithmetic.
    My churches' widows (33) receive over
    $400,000 per year from the government(s).
    The church budget is $200,000+ per year.
    (this pays for 3 full-time staff and a
    huge building).

    Hello! the widows get twice the
    church budget from the government!

    Oh yes, our widows tithe. So the widows
    are tithing $40,000 of that money they
    get from the government(s). The widows
    support 20% of the church budget.

    2/3s of our deacons are "on" social security.
    how would these people charged with helping
    the widows do that help without accepting
    government social security?
     
  7. donnA

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    How would their husband have taken care of that without ever haveing had debt for a house? Did you save the total cost of your house before buying it so that you had cash for everyting? If so, then maybe you don't know this but not everyone is that rich.
    Electricity and phone would be her only bills? Where would that be I want to move. Are you kidding, I pay for gas, water, sewage, and trash.
    It's not up to you how she eats or heats her house. The bible makes no such specifications. It also does not allow you to govern another home.
    What you all were originally asked was how many widows does your church give a monthly check to for her income? I still don't see that thats been anwered.
     
  8. dianetavegia

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    Excellent replies Ed and Betty. Right on Donna!

    My husband has worked as an 'independent' salesman for over 25 years. WE pay 15% of our income to Social Security. That is our money put away as our only 'retirement'. It would be silly not to accept back our own money! I would not expect the local church to support me if I was able to support myself, had living children or other income, such as Social Security available.

    Diane
     
  9. russell55

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    First of all, the family is. And SS or Social Insurance, as we call it, is part of the family looking after the family. If it was paid into, then it ought to be used before the church is asked to contribute.

    The scripture says a widow indeed is one without any family--children and grandchildren--to support her, and those are the ones the church needs to take care of. They also need to be above 60 years old. If they meet these criteria, then they are to be put "on the list".

    Okay, so I'm a widow, and I am in that situation--no mortgage. That really is possible only because we bought our house so long ago. A basic, basic, house here would be around $150,000 now, and that is actually less than it would cost to buy the lot and build the house.

    This is, of course, assuming he is able to take care of that before his passing. But people die young sometimes, you know, and not all churches have mission quarters. Ours doesn't, and I don't know how they would afford them.

    And the taxes thing depends on where you live. In some places, the taxes can be quite high. Mine aren't, but mine are certainly less than the taxes of many other people I know who live in other places.

    What about water, sewer, garbage, etc? If she lives in town, she's going to have those expenses. Those bills for me, including liability on my care, run somewhere around $420 a month. I am not extravagent, but that's what those things cost here.

    Okay, I have as big a garden as I can living in town, but we can only grow cool weather crops here--carrots, lettuce, broccoli, cabbage, potatoes, cauliflower, if the weather cooperates, and brussel sprouts, if the season is long enough, beets, sometimes peas, if it doesn't frost too soon. And we can grow no fruit. We really only have vegies from the garden from August until the end of October, except for the potatoes, which we have until the end of December. And even then, we have to supplement with the things we can't grow. Livestock is out, as we live in town. And most people who live outside of town don't do much livestock or chickens either, as it is too expensive to keep them and feed them over the winter, and it ends up less expensive to buy those things at the supermarket.

    I heat with wood, but I need supplementary heat as well. There is no hardwood here, so the wood is all pine, and the fire needs to be tended to every couple of hours at least, day and night. (Too cold to let the fire go out overnight.) That is a really big burden for an older woman, don't you think? And when it is really cold, burning wood is banned, because the smoke adds to the ice fog.

    (Well, we have universal health here, so that's one worry I don't have.) But what if she gets in a car accident or something like that? Her bill could easily be $30,000 or more. I know, my dad was just in a car accident and had to be hospitalized for 3 weeks, intensive care for 2 weeks. When my mom was alive, her perscriptions were several hundred dollars a month.

    There is one thing you forget. In NT times, many women died young--in child birth, etc, so if your husband died, and you were still relatively young, it wouldn't be that difficult to find another Christian man, who probably really needed you to take care of his children. There just wouldn't be that many widows "indeed".

    There are five widows in my church that I can count. I am pretty frugal--I don't even buy clothing new, so I'll take what I spend on necessities and multiply it by 5. The number I get is pretty close to my church's annual income. It would be a pretty big burden on my church to have to support them all.

    The thing I really don't understand though, is this: If my husband paid into social insurance for all those years he was working, why shouldn't I take that income? Its not money from the government, but something we bought into.
     
  10. Precepts

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    Hey Mrs. Russell55, here's your flowers I promised you:

    [​IMG]

    This next batch is from some crazed wierdo who doesn't know any better than to send flowers to widows via internet on a Christian forum like BB:

    [​IMG]

    Happy Valetines Day ! From me, my wife and four kids!
     
  11. Precepts

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    Exactly right! The money I pay in social security is for the security, get it?, for those whom I feel it should go, not to be lumped up into some grab bag for the government to dish out to whosoever jumps through the hoops to get their grubby little lying hands on, and that are too sorry to get a job. Ol' Judas looks pretty good to some, those who receive that is. But the moneies should go to those it's intended for, widows included, but now if the reason a widow is a widow because she worried her ol'hubby to death well.... ;)
     
  12. russell55

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    Thanks for the flowers. Very nice.

    My daughter got me flowers, too, so I have some real ones on the kitchen table.
     
  13. donnA

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    Ever seen an old woman trying to carry heavy wood into the house and build a fire and it's below 0?
    I would never be so cruel as to ask a widow to do that.
    I don't know what the price of a rick of wood is where you live but here it's $35-$40. and you need at the minnium of 2 rick a month,and if you try and keep a fire all night or it's a cold winter you'll need more then that.
    I do not think anyone or a even a church can dictate how a person lives, how they heat their house, what utilities they have.
    And I do not think you can ask people who barly live themselves to pay to keep up another house in addition to thier own. How do you raise children and feed and cloth them pay bills with a $15,000 income, plus another household on top of that. Not everyone is rich.
     
  14. Jim1999

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    At 77 years of age and retired, I sit here and smile as I read what everyone writes. I lok forward to when the "church" will take care of me.

    Some years ago, social security (not the money) was in the hands of local churches. When hard times hit, the churches literally abandoned their care giving, and it was everyone to himself to survive. Many did; some didn't. These were the latter 20's and all of the 30's. Tough times for the well being, let alone those who were frail.

    Out of this, Canada and the UK, developed a social system. A government with social responsibility. It built in a National Health System, an Unemployment assistance program, old age pension at 70 (then)((about $35.00 a month)) and later a pension plan (contribitory). In Canada, this was developed by ministers who formed the socialist party of Canada. Thank God, they took the gospel to the world, and social responsibility to the people.

    In the early days, as ministers, we were paid poorly, but supplied with a house in which to live. No one thought about retirement or old age frailty. We had to preach until we dropped, and many did just that. Eventually we gave up the parsonage and started to buy our own homes. We took the housing allowance and added it to our pay.

    Now I sit with four pension cheques each month: Canada Pension; Old Age Security Pension; University pension and my ministerial pension. It makes living quite comfortable. A lovely reward in my senior years. Thankfully.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  15. Walls

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    Someone asked me a question on another thread. That is why I started this thread. It wouldn't matter what explanation I give regarding any certain topic, it would never suffice.

    If a widow was a widow indeed, and she couldn't function for herself. She would stay with someone who could take care of her.

    But if she was able to move about, she should be a able to pick up a piece of wood and put it in the stove. She wouldn't have to stack would because there would be plenty of volunteers from church to handle such things.

    As far as water goes, she would have a well. At our church we believe in being self sufficient. And yes, the young men stay at home until they can pay cash for their homes.

    We believe in doing things the old ways, not the ways that leads us into slavery and bondage. Remember even, the Israelites wanted to go back to Egypt for the good things in life. We are satisified with the Manna God provides!
     
  16. donnA

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    Walls, I've carried that wood in and had to work with the stove. Grew up with it, and let me tell you it isn't easy and it is heavy. It's a real shame to have to see an old woman do it. Not to mention it was cold, heated only one romm.

    So your going to tell her what kind of water she can drink. In effect what your saying if she gets support from your church is is in bondage to them, they can dictate to her. Some church.


    Still you have not answered the original question that was posted both here and the other thread.
     
  17. donnA

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    ====And yes, the young men stay at home until they can pay cash for their homes.====
    Must take a very long time to get married then. You don't save much money growing and selling vegetable, to be self sufficent that is. Now if he has a job outside soemwhere else, then I wouldn't call that living seperated and self sufficent. So in actuality there are no young men who marry in your church, they have to save till thier old to have a house.
     
  18. GrannyGumbo

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    It wouldn't matter what explanation I give regarding any certain topic, it would never suffice.

    "True...but you aren't alone. Btw, your article is very apropos. There'd be no need for welfare & the such if true churches(not the religious organizations created by the state), would take on the right responsibility".
     
  19. Headcoveredlady

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    Walls, Thank you for sharing how your church practices taking care of widows. I think it is very beautiful and an example to me.
     
  20. Joseph_Botwinick

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