Will- Is there not a cause?

You sinned because you wanted to. I agree

Sure. Who said otherwise?

Right, but irrelevant to the point.

You're missing the point. It's not about you being forced to sin. It's why do we sin? Why does God not sin? Is somebody holding a gun to God's head and forcing him to do good?

 

:BangHead::BangHead:

Another reason it would help to study rather than just to look for passages that on their own, SEEM AT 1ST to support your views.

This verse is a reply by Christ...

33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.


He is telling them that they are from the Devil. In fact he later says this.


44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.



So you see...this supports the Calvinist view.

Again...read the whole passage. Their actions speak to the fact that they follow the devil.

Win...please. Stop just quoting verses without reading the whole book. verse 16 is telling us we BELIEVERS should obey Christ. Grace is not for us to SIN MORE. This is another way of proclaiming the Lordship in salvation. We can tell who they belong to, by the works they do.

15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


But while we are in this passage.....Now look at 18..

18Being then made free from sin, >>>>>>>>>>>>ye became >>>>the servants of righteousness.
​

We are freed from sin 1st. Freed from unbelieving faith. Our blindness is removed. Our ears are opened.

Then we BECOME...

Then we have a new Master...

Then we follow righteousness

 

I understood your analogy, and the part I question is this quote.

You made it very clear you believe that a person would "absolutely not" have free will when making choices. However when I replaced the food in your analogy with a person choosing their s*xual preference you backtracked, my question is why? Why the difference? Why doesn't your statement apply to all the choices man makes? We are either as you say "absolutely not" free to choose, but instead "bound to choose" or not? Which is it?

 

Let me turn the tables a little. Why does one sinner chose to murder and another sinner choses not to. Is it their free will they are exercising, or did God program them to act that way?

 

I believe this is an heretical statement. This makes God responsible for sin, which is something He cannot do. This is what I call Hyper-Calvinism, something I will stand against until my dying breath! Man is responsible for his actions, not God, in my opinion.

 

First, you say, “no one believes that humans have no volition” and “humans are perfectly free to do what they want” then, you say, “their want is controlled by forces outside of themselves”. Let me clarify a big problem you have in this ignorant double-speak concerning your Determinist view with some simplistic logic on this issue of thinking you can have it both ways:

1) Necessarily God has fore determined everything that will happen
2) God has determined X
3) Therefore it is necessary that X will happen


“Your” conclusion in no way supports creaturely volition/ability to choose! So back to my question: How can they be held responsible if their ability (the cause, if you like) is “controlled” or determined?!

Ever consider that maybe it is you that should read more carefully because you seem to miss the logical facts for your ranting? I defined free will/volition and made the case that free will/volition is a logical necessity to establish a causal means right here:

If you can’t follow and/or acknowledge simple logical principles and questions I can’t help you and am not interested in dealing with your rabbit trail rhetorical rants. Deal with the issues or "End of story".

 

My pit bull mix might even eat a Calvinist if she gets hungry enough! :laugh:

 

Never said man wasn't responsible. But God is also fully in control, and nothing happens, except what He has willed and planned. Both are true.

And, no, this is not hyper calvinism. Hyper Calvinism has nothing to do with the will(s) of God. It has to do with evangelism.

Tell me: if God doesn't want a person to be murdered, then why does He allow it? He is more than capable of stopping it, without impinging on a person's so-called "free will." For instance, he could have the police show up, cause some kind of a natural disaster, or give the murderer a heart attack. And these things, in fact, stop murders ALL THE TIME. And no one would hesitate saying "Thank you Lord for intervening."

Yet these people fail to take this to the logical conclusion. Why does God NOT stop those other murders?

Answer this: Who brought about the death of Christ? (God) Who is responsible for His death? (Man)

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know--
Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

 

This is the definitive scripture which erases the conflict between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility.

In the death of the Christ, God is fully sovereign and man is fully responsible.

God is no less sovereign in the affairs of men. And men are no less responsible.

 

There is no conflict to erase, God's plan has not changed from the beginning; in a nut shell:

God’s Divine Exhaustive Foreknowledge of His creature’s (who were made in His image and likeness and also would have the ability to freely “choose” to have knowledge; who would desire themselves to be as little gods, Gen 3:5, 3:22, and would fall in that decision because there is Only One God and Only One that is Good) fall, did in love for His creation, promise His Son for an atonement for the sins of ALL His creatures in creation before time began. God, in His great wisdom, knowing man would fall lovingly fore-provided/determined a Way for salvation for belief of the Truth.

This in no way hinders the creature’s free will/volitional design which allows, in truth, for God’s Righteous Judgment. God influences and we respond or not; God does not cause a determined effect on us or logically/truthfully not only does creaturely responsibilities become void, but also ultimately this would contradict the scriptures which proclaim He made the world “very good”, and that God is “patient, Love and Truth and without inequity in character, and while in this Truth all His just ways involve judgment in the Divine Nature of the Truth in which He exists. (Deut 32:4).

In a reliance on “cause and effect” rather than “influence and response” one is simply denying God’s Righteous Judgment and is avoiding the “true Divine creational design” he was made with that gives him the ability, through God’s Loving Grace (not Calvin’s ideas of selective grace) to freely choose God’s Love through the influences God provides to all His creatures. The greatness of God’s sovereignty is seen in His Divine creational design of His creatures; in involves our free will responses in love for the Truth that He gives us all and this brings Him glory. God is Great!

I’m done, it’s Christmas. Merry Christmas to all!