Wine in the Bible

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Mike Walker, Oct 10, 2001.

  1. Mike Walker

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    I am becoming confused. I hear so many of my fellow Baptists condemn the consumption of alcohol, but the more I research the bible the more I come to the conclusion that this is not right.

    Wine is mentioned over and over again in the bible not as being an evil, but of being a very improtant part of everyday life. Jesus drank wine, Jesue made wine. Paul prescribes it as something that is beneficial to your health, which has recently been proven by medical science. I could go on.

    It had a dramatic impact on the flourishment of Christian religion in Europe. It has always been a big part of Christian religions - until recently. Now all of a sudden it is "bad"? Could this be the "wisdom of men" that I am warned of. Who do I follow - scripture or men? If I follow men, then may I also pick and choose which parts of the bible are to be omitted or ignored? Someone please help me to wade through this issue.
     
  2. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Walker:
    I am becoming confused. I hear so many of my fellow Baptists condemn the consumption of alcohol, but the more I research the bible the more I come to the conclusion that this is not right.

    Wine is mentioned over and over again in the bible not as being an evil, but of being a very improtant part of everyday life. Jesus drank wine, Jesue made wine. Paul prescribes it as something that is beneficial to your health, which has recently been proven by medical science. I could go on.

    It had a dramatic impact on the flourishment of Christian religion in Europe. It has always been a big part of Christian religions - until recently. Now all of a sudden it is "bad"? Could this be the "wisdom of men" that I am warned of. Who do I follow - scripture or men? If I follow men, then may I also pick and choose which parts of the bible are to be omitted or ignored? Someone please help me to wade through this issue.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I think we have gone this way before, nevertheless:

    Proverbs 31:6-7 (ESV)
    Give strong drink to the one who is perishing,
    and wine to those in bitter distress;
    [7] let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.

    1 Tim. 5:23 (ESV)
    (No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)

    Matthew 26:27-29 (ESV)
    And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you, [28] for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. [29] I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

    John 2:9-10 (ESV)
    When the master of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom
    [10] and said to him, "Everyone serves the good wine first, and when people have drunk freely, then the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now."

    Would the Great Winemaker turn water into wine and use it as a sign of the new covenant if wine was evil? Drunkenness is evil; wine is a gift from God. ;)
     
  3. ddavis

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    I have looked at this in my own studies because of some arguments with other Christians that use it as an excuse to drink alcoholic drinks. They say one beer a day won’t hurt but that adds up to 365 in a year a look what that can do to our temple (body). Then how people do you know that only have just one?
    I think you’ll find that after fermented beverages are used there is judgment as in the case of Noah and Ham. Except for medical uses, like Paul telling Timothy for his stomach.
    I do not believe that a holy, just, pure, righteous, perfect God would drink fermented wine knowing that he could get a buzz from it. Fermentation is a symbol of corruption just as leaven is. I believe Christ made and drank grape juice from the vine before it fermented
     
  4. svntofgod

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    Wine is what come from grapes after they have fermented not before. The Bible clearly say that Jesus turned water to Wine not water to grape juice.
     
  5. Brother Adam

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    Discernment is a wonderful thing ;)

    So is common sense. I think you all know what I mean.

    Until next Post, Adam
     
  6. Lorelei

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    Yeah we have covered this before, just a little. Hmm, wonder how many pages this one will go. *hehe*

    But since Mike appears to be new we should continue on with the discussion. [​IMG]

    BTW Welcome Mike! [​IMG]

    ~Lorelei

    PS. Oh about the topic itself? yeah, yeah, yeah, I may comment later, for now I listen and learn!
     
  7. DocCas

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:
    Matthew 26:27-29 (ESV)
    And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you, [28] for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. [29] I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No mention of wine in those verses. Are you adding to the word of God? :D
     
  8. DocCas

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by svntofgod:
    Wine is what come from grapes after they have fermented not before. The Bible clearly say that Jesus turned water to Wine not water to grape juice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>In that case, the bible must be wrong in Isaiah 65:8 "Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, . . . "

    When you squeeze a cluster of grapes, you don't get booze, you get grape juice. "Wine" simply means "fruit of the vine." It can be either fermented or non fermented. The word is context driven.

    [ October 10, 2001: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]
     
  9. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ddavis:
    I believe Christ made and drank grape juice from the vine before it fermented<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Do you really believe the master of the feast said, "But you have kept the good grape juice until now"? :eek:
     
  10. Kathy

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    My own opinion is that more than not, when wine is mentioned, it's not a good thing...take for instance Lot and how his daughters got him drunk and had sex with him...Proverbs says that wine is a mocker...I tend to believe...no, I DO BELIEVE what Thomas Cassidy said is truth, thank you Dr. Cassidy!

    Kathy
    &lt;&gt;&lt;
     
  11. Mike Walker

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    I must say that I am pleasently surprised at the number of replies agreeing with me. I guess I missed out on the past discussions. I am a home WINEMAKER by the way in case anyone out there wants to get into the nitty gritty of the technical aspects of wine and how it relates to the wine vs grape juice argument.

    I'll just give my opinion now: I don't think 2000 years ago it was possible to keep grape juice for more than a few days. If anyone knows how please let me know. I think some people have a hard time letting go of the TRADITIONS OF MAN and accepting what may be contrary to their way of thinking. This whole idea that wine is bad is something that started in this country about 100 years ago. Are you going to throw out 2000 years of religeous history because of some ill-guided religeous fanatics?
     
  12. ddavis

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    So Chris, you drink? Again the ones that are in favor of drinking are the ones that want Christ in the same boat. Luke 1;15, Then it will be done in moderation, how about L.S.D.
    marijuana, whiskey. Then what about those who are alcoholic and have fermented wine for the Lord's Table? Hab. 2;15-16 I guess we can do anything in moderation? steal just alittle, cheat just alittle, lie just alittle?

    [ October 10, 2001: Message edited by: ddavis ]

    [ October 10, 2001: Message edited by: ddavis ]

    [ October 10, 2001: Message edited by: ddavis ]
     
  13. Mike Walker

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    Kathy,

    Who is Dr Cassidy? Are you going to follow him and his PERSONAL beliefs or what is written in the bible? The sin is not wine but gluttony. Gluttony of anything is a sin. Are fat people sinful???
     
  14. HankD

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    &gt;&gt;I guess we can do anything in moderation? steal just alittle, cheat just alittle, lie just alittle?&gt;&gt;

    Let him who is without sin...
     
  15. Brother Adam

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    ...cast the first stone.

    Ah, dang. that's not me. Can I throw a cream pie instead?

    Sorry, just trying to lighten things up a little.

    UntiL next Post, Adam
     
  16. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ddavis:
    So Chris, you drink? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    No I don't. I choose not to so as not to eb a stumbling block to my 13 year old daughter. But my conscience is clear should I ever decide to do so [​IMG]

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Again the ones that are in favor of drinking are the ones that want Christ in the same boat. Luke 1;15, Then it will be done in moderation, how about L.S.D.
    marijuana, whiskey.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    An irrelevant non sequiter. Wine is approved of in the NT; drugs, marijuana and whiskey are not. Wine has a purpose according to Scripture; the only purpose drugs have is removal from reality. No relationship at all.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Then what about those who are alcoholic and have fermented wine for the Lord's Table? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    For that reason, I recommend grape juice for the Lord's Table. That was hard ... :rolleyes:

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Hab. 2;15-16 I guess we can do anything in moderation? steal just alittle, cheat just alittle, lie just alittle? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Hab 2:15 ¶ Woe to him who makes his neighbors drink of the cup of his wrath, and makes them drunk, to gaze on their shame!
    16 You will be sated with contempt instead of glory. Drink, yourself, and stagger! The cup in the LORD’s right hand will come around to you, and shame will come upon your glory!

    Does this verse refer to drinking wine, or is it an analogy to being drunk with sin?

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1 Cor 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify.
    24 Let no one seek his own, but each one the other’s well -being.
    25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience’ sake;
    26 for "the earth is the LORD’S, and all its fullness."
    27 If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience’ sake.
    28 But if anyone says to you, "This was offered to idols," do not eat it for the sake of the one who told you, and for conscience’ sake; for "the earth is the LORD’S, and all its fullness."
    29 "Conscience," I say, not your own, but that of the other. For why is my liberty judged by another man’s conscience?
    30 But if I partake with thanks, why am I evil spoken of for the food over which I give thanks?
    31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
    32 Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks or to the church of God,
    33 just as I also please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
  17. Daniel Davidson

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:
    Would the Great Winemaker turn water into wine and use it as a sign of the new covenant if wine was evil? Drunkenness is evil; wine is a gift from God. ;)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Very well put, Chris.
     
  18. Kathy

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Walker:
    Kathy,

    Who is Dr Cassidy? Are you going to follow him and his PERSONAL beliefs or what is written in the bible? The sin is not wine but gluttony. Gluttony of anything is a sin. Are fat people sinful???
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Dr. Cassidy is a respected Baptist Board member and an Administrator of the Board. I was simply agreeing with what he said, not following his personal beliefs as if I am a Cassidyite. You asked my opinion, I gave it...From what I have read in the Bible ON MY OWN, I have my own personal convictions. I won't bother with the other question you asked because it's like comparing eating a steak to eating a McDonald's hamburger...there is no comparison. [​IMG]

    Kathy
    &lt;&gt;&lt;
     
  19. swaimj

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    I agree that wine symbolizes the New Covenant and the giving of the Spirit, particularly in the John's account of Jesus turning the water into wine. However, now that we have the Spirit, we should experience all the good benefits that wine can bring, not through wine, but through the Spirit. You who drink, or seek to justify drinking, what does drinking give you that you could not experience more fully and more permanently by being filled with the Spirit?
     
  20. Brother Adam

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    I don't drink. (not only because I am underage but because I choose not to). But why exactly are we condemning those who choose to drink in moderation? I have yet to figure that out. If you don't want to drink, that is your personal choice. But why are you condemning something that is not condemned in the Bible?

    Until next Post, Adam
     

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