Wise and Foolish Virgins

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by J. Jump, Jul 9, 2006.

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  1. J. Jump

    J. Jump
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    1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

    Again this is speaking of the kingdom of the heavens and not eternity. These 10 virgins all took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom.

    Verse one alone should be enough to tell us that only saved people are in view, because all 10 went to meet the bridegroom.

    Unsaved people are not going to meet the Bridegroom. Unsaved people could care less that the Bridegroom is coming, much less want to meet Him.

    But all 10 of these virgins were obviously interested in the bridgrooms coming.

    8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. [SIZE=-1]F48[/SIZE]

    Again no one has answered the question of how a lamp goes out without having oil. If they didn't have any oil in the first place they wouldn't have said our lamps are gone out they would have said give us some oil so we can light our lamp in the first place.

    They said our light has gone out we need more oil to light it again.

    9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

    Here we are given the same picture of buying for ourselves that is seen in Revelation 3 in the letter to Laodicia. And again that was only speaking to believers, just as this parable is only addressing believers.

    10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

    And here we get the same picture of those that will cry Lord, Lord, which are saved people as well that weren't about the Father's will. And it seems to correlate that these foolish virgins weren't about the Father's will either and will be treated the same way.

    13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

    Again unsaved people are not going to be watching for the Son of man, becuase they have no interest in seeing Him. All 10 of the virigins had a desire to see the bridegroom.

    It really is impossible to have these five foolish virigins as unsaved, unless you just want to totally ignore what the passage says.
     
  2. gekko

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    umm. so what are you asking? what are you getting at here J.Jump?
     
  3. J. Jump

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    This was basically a continuation from a thread that was closed where we had started talking about the five wise and five foolish virgins.

    You can see more of the conversation in the latter pages of what sins can a Christian commit thread.
     
  4. canadyjd

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    You are not seeing the passage in context. You need to go back at least to Matt. 24:1+ to see the context; which is the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ in the day of judgement. "Being prepared" for His coming; i.e living as Christ has taught us to live: is the validation of the profession of faith of those who are saved. The foolish virgins were lost; they were not living as Christ told them to live.

    Notice Matt 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved". He then gives several senerios that demonstrate how some will be prepared (saved) and some will not. One of those senerios is the 10 virgins.

    "the one who endures to the end" are all those who are saved. The ones who do not, are those who are not saved; even despite proclaimations of knowing Jesus. What matters in the end is whether Jesus knows them.

    To see that the entire discourse (beginning at least with Matt 24:1) is concerning salvation and damnation; those that are lost and those that are saved; you must only read the final verse of the discourse (25:46) "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life".
    peace to you:praise:
     
  5. standingfirminChrist

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    The foolish took their lamps... empty. They did not carry vessels of oil as the wise had done.

    The foolish virgins were lying about their lamps going out. The fact is, they did not even take oil to burn.
     
  6. J. Jump

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    You are proving my point for me :)

    Judgment day is exactly the the context. And unsaved and saved are never seen together at the same judgment. Right living is exactly the context of the parable. And the only ones that are even capable of living right is saved people.

    Exactly! Which makes them foolish not unsaved. They were capable of bringing extra oil, but the didn't. They were capable of living right, but they didn't. They were saved individuals that were not doing the will of the Father. The only ones that are even capable of doing the will of the Father are saved people.

    Notice what is involved here...enduring. That is man's works, which means eternal salvation is not in view, becuase eternal salvation is by grace alone, not man's works. Preparation for the coming of the Lord in these parables is seen among His servants. His servants are saved. Unfortunately some are preparing themselves for His return as the wise and some are just going about their own business as the foolish and will not be ready for that day.

    Again the Greek word aionios is used here and should be translated age-lasting not eternal. The life that is spoken of here is kingdom life, life for the kingdom age. And the punishment is kingdom punishment, or punishment as long as the kingdom lasts, which is 1,000 years.

    I don't know how it can be made any more plain. Works are invovled in these parables and therefore eternal salvation can not be the context. It's that plain and that simple. If it is then there are serious contradictions in the Bible.
     
  7. J. Jump

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    That's not what the text says. That's what SFIC is reading into the text so that he can hold on to a traditional teaching that is not supported by Scripture.

    Exactly. They didn't carry extra oil.

    Again this can not be found in Scripture. This is SFIC adding to what Scripture says. We have no record of them lying about their lamps going out. If they were lying why didn't the five wise call them on the lie and say you are lying your lamps aren't going out. But that's not what they said.

    They just said we didn't bring enough for you and us both. No indication of lying.

    That is not factual at all and can not be supported by the Scripture. That is what you must read into the text so that you can continue to believe the way you want to believe.

    Let me ask you this question. What is the danger is saying that not all Christians are going to be a part of the bride? If you are about the Father's business as you are supposed to be, then what danger is it to warn other people that if they aren't about the Father's business they are not going to be a part of the bride?

    If you are doing what the Lord has called you to do then there is nothing for you to worry about. But what you are in fact saying is that I can become a Christian and then I can go off and live a life of a heathen and all will be well because the entire church becomes the bride and if I'm saved then I get to rule and reign and then I get to go to heaven and all is hunky dory.

    See that's why Christendom is in the mesh that it is in today is becuase there is absolutely no reason for people to pay the price of discipleship becuase they are being taught that they get to go to heaven and they get to rule and reign and they get to become the bride despite the manner in which they live.

    Unfortunately for those that are being taught that, they are being taught a lie straight from the depths of hell and Satan is sitting back and having hey day, because the church is actually doing his business instead of the father's business.

    People better wake up and smell the smoke. It's not all going to be peaches and creme for the disobedient, unfaithful Christian as so many today suppose!
     
  8. LeBuick

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    I believe the wedding party is symbolic of the world and not just the Church. If this was only the Church, why would some not be ready and not get in?
     
  9. J. Jump

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    Well Scripture lays it out many different ways. Another way to look at it is via the picture of the servant. There are some servants that are found faithful and there was one servant that was wicked and unfaithful.

    Revelation 2-3 talks about overcomers. There are some that overcome the flesh, the world and Satan, and then there are others that are overcome.

    Unfaithful, wicked, non-overcomers will not wed themselves to Christ. That just doesn't even make sense.

    If those servants couldn't even be trusted to do the Father's business in the here and now, why can they all of a sudden be trusted to do Christ's bidding in the 1,000-year kingdom?
     
  10. standingfirminChrist

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    On the contrary, JJump...

    The Bible says the foolish virgins 'took no oil with them.' That is the exact words from the Bible.

    They had to be lying about their lamps going out, for 'they took no oil with them.
    If is not me reading into the text what is not there. It is there... they took no oil. Period.
     
  11. J. Jump

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    SFIC you are still reading into Scripture, becuase you are assuming that they didn't have oil in their lamps. The Scripture saying they took no oil with them is in direct comparison to the wise that took extra oil with them.

    You are reading into Scripture that which is not there. They are saved. The parables that come right after this talk about the same issue and those servants are saved as well.
     
  12. El_Guero

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    I believe that Standing Firm is doing at least 2 things correctly.

    He reading a parable as A PARABLE.

    And two, he is not reading into it what he wants the text to say.

    A parable is not a long list of data to be understood - like and email. A parable is a story that has a moral to it (sometimes more than one moral). It is not the data that we look at in a parable, but the intent that the author expected the listener (& for us the reader) to understand.

    Yet, even to the data, the author was faithful to the intent - the foolish did not take the oil as the wise did - because the wise took the oil in the lamp.

    Further the text says that the foolish DID NOT TAKE OIL. In the Greek, KJV, and NKJV.

    (NKJV) Matthew 25:3 3 "Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,
     
  13. Hope of Glory

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    The funny thing about it is that I was having a similar debate with someone here locally, and he saw that the foolish virgins had oil, but he also failed to distinguish between the Kingdom and spiritual salvation. Therefore, his spin is that the 5 foolish virgins lost their salvation. He saw the obvious that they were saved, then believed they lost it.

    No one has yet to answer how something is going out (or has gone out) without being lit in the first place.

    This is what Scriptures say. Now, you can insert your own text and add to the written word and say, "They were lying about them being lit", but Scriptures say they were going out. Can you extinguish a campfire without someone making a campfire? Can a firefighter put out a burning building without it being on fire?

    How can something go out without being lit?
     
  14. J. Jump

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    Yes he is and so are you now that you have joined in the fun :wavey:

    The text does not say they didn't have oil in their lamps. It said they didn't take oil in direct comparison to the wise that took extra oil in their spare container.

    It is reading into the text that which is not their to say that these virgins didn't have any oil at all.

    Plus no one has answered my quesiton as to how an unsaved virgin would even be interested in the bridegroom coming? Why would they have even made the journey?

    You all have to read a lot into the text to hold on to tradition!
     
  15. LeBuick

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    I agree JJ, I couldn't see them taking an empty lamp. I have always believed they brought no extra oil.
     
  16. StraightAndNarrow

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    Once again, it really makes no difference. What matters is whether they had enough oil to last until the bridegroom arrives, which stands for the second coming of Christ. The wise will be ready. The foolish will not. If they had oil in their lamps but not enough to last until the bridgegroom's arrival that is anagous to having been prepared at one point (saved) and not at the critical point, when Christ returns. In short, they lost their salvation.
     
  17. LeBuick

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    So the real question is what does not getting into the wedding mean. Are we sure the wedding is the second coming? What if those who don't get in just has to go through great tribulation instead of being raptured with the church?
     
  18. Marcia

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    I think the foolish virgins are not saved, because Jesus says to them, "I do not know you." This is similar to what he says in Matt. 7, "Depart from me, I never knew you" to those claiming to have healed and cast out devils in his name.

    Once again, Jesus would never say to a believer, indwelt, regenerated, and sealed by the Holy Spirit; purchased by His blood, and loved by God, that he never knew that person.
     
  19. J. Jump

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    That would be a much better way to view it than to say they didn't have any oil, but we know the Bible teaches that are salvation is secure, so the only possible interpretation is that they are all saved, except five are ready to face the judgment seat and five are not. Five will be positively rewarded and five will suffer loss.

    LeBuick I think some probably would even look at your question well they probably won't be raptured and will have to go through the tribulation, but again when we compare Scripture with Scripture the entire church is raptured both faithful and unfaithful alike because there is only one judgment seat of Christ for the church dispensation.

    That's your opinion and we can't interpret Scripture on personal opinion. The passage says He will fact say that to saved individuals.
     
  20. Marcia

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    Maybe it's an opinion, but it's based on biblical principles and common sense.

    Where does the passage say that Jesus will say this to saved people??
     
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