"Wives Submit To Your Husbands In Everything?"

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Jamal5000, Sep 2, 2002.

  1. Jamal5000

    Jamal5000
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    The role of the wife still confuses me because I still see the world with egalitarian eyes influenced by the strings of the Women's Liberation movement among other pop culture factors. How does the bible view the role of the wife?

    Look at Ephesians 5:22-24 (ESV): Wives submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

    According to Webster's 3rd Collegiate Dictionary, the oldest definition of the word SUBMIT mentioned means "to yield to governance or authority". According to my Strong's Concordance, the Greek word represented by this word conveys the idea of "subordinating yourself under another authority, obeying another authority, or arranging yourself under authority". This same word appears in Colossians 3:18.

    Do these verses mean that a wife should allow her husband to tell her what to do like a USAF General pulls rank over a USAF Colonel? Do these verses mean that a wife should willingly capitulate to her Godly husbands decisions about the household?

    Thank you for all of your input, especially the ladies. [​IMG]
     
  2. latterrain77

    latterrain77
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    Hi Jamal5000. Under the Biblical standard, the wife is to arrange her demeanor in a manner that is consistent with how a true believer approaches the LORD. It is NOT a master/slave relationship as many might first conjure in their minds when reading this verse. It IS a FRIENDSHIP relationship (John 15: 15).

    Friends CAN serve one another. Best friends ALWAYS do. There is nothing derogatory about being in service to GOD, family, friend, or community. There is nothing master/slave about being in SERVICE.

    There are two sides to the husband/wife dynamic. A husband is called upon to LOVE his wife as Christ loved the church (Eph. 5: 25). When did Christ love the church? When the church was lovable? No! When the church was righteous? No! Christ loved the church when the church was utterly unlovable and sinful (Rom. 5: 8).

    Husbands are commanded to love their wives in the same manner that the LORD loved his elect. Even as Christ DIED for his bride the church, husbands are to die for their wives. In the spiritual sense, many husbands do this everyday as we tackle the world (i.e. jobs, careers, business, loving compassion, parenting, etc) in our effort to raise and nurture our families in line with GOD’s divine Biblical model. In extreme cases, a husband might actually be called upon to do this in the most literal sense.

    Anyone who believes that the women’s standard is severe – please consider the man’s standard! The husband’s standard is extremely high. I will admit that MANY husbands do not measure up to the Biblical standard. Nevertheless, I say many Christian husbands and wives are doing a very good job at keeping their part in the Divine husband/wife standard (though we should always strive to do even better!)

    Last thought; a husband does NOT have the right to “tell his wife” what to do. This is NOT what Eph. 5: 22 implies. Furthermore, "telling someone what to do" does not fit the definition of Christ/Church "FRIENDS" as described in John 15: 15.

    Rather, the husband who bases his actions on the Biblical standard will guide and direct his wife in a manner that is consistent with those Biblical obligations defined in Eph. 5: 25 as well as John 15: 15. In so doing, his wife will recognize the power and wisdom in that Biblical advice, and will promptly heed that Biblical advice BECAUSE she recognizes the power, truth and wisdom in it! That is what the word "submit" really means. It has nothing to do with a master/slave dynamic.

    Tyranny is NEVER acceptable under Biblical standards. Grace, mercy and justice are products of LOVE and temperance. Anything else would be an affront to the Biblical model.

    latterrain77

    Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. (John: 15: 15).

    Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; (Eph. 5: 25).

    But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom. 5: 8)

    [ September 02, 2002, 06:48 AM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]
     
  3. Justified

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    Justified: Olive, cook now!

    Olive: Yes Sir!

    Justified: Olive, wash my clothes!

    Olive: Yes Sir!

    Justified: Olive, clean the house!

    Olive: Yes Sir!

    Justified: Olive, answer the phone!

    Olive: Yes sir!

    Justified: Olive, I Love You! [​IMG]

    Olive: Yes Sir! [​IMG]

    Justified: Power is wonderful? [​IMG]

    Olive: Yes Sir. [​IMG]
     
  4. Don

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    Jamal, read the rest of the chapter. Also understand why God created woman: As a help meet, not a "slave" (see Genesis 2:18).

    We understand that the wife is a help meet, and not a slave; and we understand that the husband is to love the wife like Christ loves the church and their own bodies (no man hateth his own flesh, but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church); we now understand that this submission thing is not a matter of a general over his army, but as a body to a head.

    We also understand that we men are part of the church as well, and need to submit to Christ. And until we do that, we will never fully understand or be able to require the submission of our wives.

    I humbly put forth, gentlemen, that if you've never placed yourself in 100% submission to another man, then you may have a problem being able to 100% submit to the Lord.
     
  5. Scarlett O.

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    Hi Jamal5000-

    Wifely submission to a godly husband has nothing to do with delineation of "chores". Scripture found in Ephesians and I Peter and Titus aren't outlining specific duties that are to be done around the house nor do they have anything to do with sex nor who will "take care" of the children.

    The Bible says that a wife is to submit to her husband "as unto the Lord". This means that she is to place her trust in him as a man of God and a man who will never do anything to demean her or lord over her, only encourage her.

    Many men think that they should be willing to die for their wives and that the willingness to sacrifice their lives is what the Bible means about loving like Christ did.

    But it's not.

    Christ rose again! He lives! He's not dead anymore!! And His whole entirety of His Being is to live for the Church and make her holy and presentable before God.

    That's what a woman is to submit to. She is to wholely and completely place her trust and give all that she has to a husband who emulates Jesus in the home. Jesus, the Lamb. Jesus, the Intercessor. Jesus, the Sacrifice. But not Jesus, the Omnipotent God.

    God ordained a punishment for Eve and all women in the book of Genesis. He said that because she "tipped the scales" of equality by lording over and convincing Adam to sin that He would allow the scales to be tipped again, only in reverse. "He will rule over you". That was and still is a punishment. Women bear that punishment to this day. The multi-billion dollar pornography industry, oppression of women in third world countries, unequal pay, overcrowded battered women's shelters, and this list goes on ad nausem.

    But a Godly husband is a shelter in that storm of inequality and abuse. God says to woman, "Yes, you've been punished, but I'll make a way for you to bear it. I'll give you a husband who will treat you on the earth the way that Christ treated people and the church while He was on this earth and still does from Heaven."

    Wifely submission does not mean that the husbands are to make all of the decisions in the family. That's stupid. What happens when he dies and she doesn't know how to pump gas, let alone know where the insurance papers are?

    Wifely submission does not mean that she is the chief cook and bottle washer. Or that she must "obey" his every command. It does not mean that he decides when they have children or how many children they have or if she can have a job outside the home or not.

    Wifely submission means that in the context of the relationship between a woman and her husband, she earnestly reveres him with all of her heart. She would never do anything to make him feel unappreciated. In fact, she should go out of her way to make him feel important and needed and cared for. She respects him with love and adoration. She would bite her tongue before she belittled him in public. (She may have to confront him in the privacy of their home, however.) She is also alert to his sensitive ego.

    I don't mean ego in a negative light. I don't mean self-centeredness at all. But men do have a very fragile and sensitive ego. There is much pressure on men to perform on the job, at home, in the "boy's club", at church. In all arenas of life, men are expected to be "manly". That's a hard job and she must be sensitive to that.

    She encourages the children to place their trust in their father and to adore and revere him. If there is a problem between she and her husband, she will never confront him in front of the children.

    In a nutshell, she totally reverences him to the point that he feels at ease and takes great joy in loving her and leading his family in spiritual matters.

    When other people speak of her husband, she should get a smile on her face that speaks of great pride in living with a man that follows Christ and treats her accordingly.

    To sum this long passage up, wifely submission is grossly misinterpreted and abused in the Christian faith.

    But nonetheless, and even though the Church seems to not care to take measures to correct this false teaching of master/slave relationship, wives should play the part of loving and nuturing partners in just the manner that God asks us to. Whether the husband "gets it" or not is irrelevant. Whether the church teaches it correctly or not is irrelvant. She should just do it. And she should do it with a smile on her face and a song in her heart. And she should do it from a source of sincerity and not martyrdom. Joyfully serving her family and husband. And that is true submission.

    Peace-

    YSIC
    Scarlett O.
    <><

    [ September 02, 2002, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: Scarlett O. ]
     
  6. post-it

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    Very well written Scarlett O.

    I look at my wife as a partner in life and best friend for life. I just control 51% to her 49% of the partnership voting rights.

    I’m very careful and fair how and when I utilize that 1% but it must be that way for any partnership to work. The best friend aspects keep two people together for life through the ups and downs. Love is important, but unfortunately there are a lot of divorced people who still love each other that can't stand each other's company, so love alone is not what keeps the marriage together.

    [ September 02, 2002, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]
     
  7. Pastor_Bob

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    Eph 5:33 "Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband."

    This word reverence means " to be in awe of ." Any man who is doing his best to love his wife like Christ loves the church will have a far better chance of having a wife that will reverence him.

    Submission and reverence should not be demanded; they should be deserved.
     
  8. Justified

    Justified
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    [​IMG] Olive is my Proverbs 31 woman! [​IMG]

    [​IMG] She also can be my Problems 31 woman! [​IMG]
     
  9. Gina B

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    lr77, I really liked that post of yours! I may just steal it for future use. [​IMG]
     
  10. Jamal5000

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    Thank you for all of your reactions, everyone. I appreciate the honesty.

    I ran across this explanation of Ephesians 5:22-23 in Matthew Henry's Commentary:

    The duty perscribed to wives is submission to their husbands in the Lord (V. 22), which submission includes the honouring and obeying of them, and that from a principle of love to them. They must do this in compliance with God's authority, who has commanded it, which is doing it as unto the Lord; or it may be understood by the way of similitude and likeness, so that the sense may be, "as, being devoted to God, you submit yourselves unto him."

    I think this goes alone with what Scarlett is saying. What do you think?
     
  11. latterrain77

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    Hi Chrysoprasus! Thank you for your very kind words. It was only my feeble attempt to explain what the Bible itself so perfectly says. Thankfully, the Bible is GOD’s inerrant word of truth and it belongs FREELY to all! [​IMG]

    latterrain77
     
  12. Mark Osgatharp

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    I Peter chapter three says that women are to obey their husbands, even if the husband is an ungodly man. Therefore, a woman cannot condition her obedience to her husband on her husbands spirituality or lack thereof.

    To "obey" means to follow the directions and commands of another. Just as children are to obey their parents, men are to obey the law, and slaves are to obey their masters, women are to obey their husbands.

    The only exception I find to this rule is that of Peter, "We ought to obey God rather than man." If a man told his wife to do something directly contrary to the will of God, then she would be authorized to "obey God rather than man." Otherwise, the wife should obey her husband, just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, "calling him lord" - that is to say, master.

    Obviously, none of this means that a man should treat his wife like a child or use his authority for his own selfish interests; rather, he should love and nurture her even as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for it and, as Peter said, treat her as a fellow-heir of the grace of life.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  13. Mark Osgatharp

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    Latterrain77,

    You said,

    "Last thought; a husband does NOT have the right to “tell his wife” what to do. This is NOT what Eph. 5: 22 implies. Furthermore, 'telling someone what to do' does not fit the definition of Christ/Church 'FRIENDS' as described in John 15: 15. "

    But verse 14 of that same discourse says:

    "Ye are my friends if ye do whatever I command you."

    Wives are instructed by God to obey their husbands. That means doing whatever their husbnd commands and that is how she can be a true friend to her husband.

    Obviously, this doesn't mean a huband should abuse that power for his own selfish desires. Rather, he should command what is best for the whole family and, most of all, for the service of the Lord. As Joshua said,

    "As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord."

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  14. Abiyah

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    I will tell you what scares me to death about
    husbands who REALLY follow that the Bible
    says--all of it-- about being a husband, not
    just the "obey" part. They are scary because
    I will never be good enough to deserve him.

    My present husband faithfully follows every-
    thing the Bible says. I love him for that, appre-
    ciating him, and enjoying him, but I simply do
    not have the capacity to be a perfect godly wife.
    Do you realize how frightening this can be? It
    scares me that someday, he may wake up and
    realize what a raw deal he is getting.

    Ah, don't write to encourage me. It's hopeless!
    8o)

    [ September 03, 2002, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
     
  15. Daniel David

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    I do not agree with men who use their role to dominate their wives. I am a husband myself and it is a foreign thought to me.

    However, I will say this: obedience isn't conditioned on the person in authority. Even if the husband abuses his role and is selfish, obedience is not to be questioned. Obviously, if a husband is leading his wife to sin, she cannot. That is the extreme and not the standard. Men that abuse their wives need to be in chains making little rocks out of big rocks.

    A wife could be extremely frustrated, but that is where the grace of God takes over and gives new love for that guy (creep that he is).
     
  16. GrannyGumbo

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    Ah, don't write to encourage me. It's hopeless 8o)[Abiyah]

    "I presume that was written in jest, but here's a little something just for you:

    "A word of encouragement...Often may cheer...A life that's downhearted...And troubled by fear;...Like apples of gold...Words a blessing may be,...So always encourage...The sad ones you see."

    So here's to you, Abiyah, a great big (((HUG))) for always saying the right things with the right attitude... [​IMG]
     
  17. Abiyah

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    Aw, GrannyGumbo! I like that poem. You
    know what could make him happy with me?
    If I had your recipe for fried green tomatoes.
    Would you PM me how to do them? (I did
    make him chocolate chip cookies yesterday;
    this could set me up for the whole week! 8o)
     
  18. Abiyah

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    Well, I went to the store yesterday to buy a
    couple pieces of glass, and I saw demonstrated
    a real lesson in lack of personal discipline, lack
    of respect for a husband, and lack of respect for
    simple human life all rolled into one.

    There was a woman there with a basket, and as
    she pushed it along, she very clearly said to her
    husband, "Oh, why don't you just shut up!" I
    looked at him, and his shoulders were dropped
    as he just sagged behind her in silence. I would
    not give their marriage a year. The man was a
    good-looking one, one who could easily find
    someone who would appreciate him and give
    him the respect one deserves by simply being
    human. She will soon find herself shopping
    the hardware store alone with nothing but
    bitter words because I doubt she will ever
    "get it."

    My husband was off getting his own stuff, so
    when I met with him, I asked him, "Just how long
    would we last if I were to be telling you to "shut
    up"? Well, he did not answer me, since it was a
    rhetorical question, but Good Night! If we can
    not even speak respectfully to a spouse in
    public, what is going on at home?

    [ September 05, 2002, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]
     
  19. Johnv

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    Under the Biblical standard, the wife is to arrange her demeanor in a manner that is consistent with how a true believer approaches the LORD. It is NOT a master/slave relationship as many might first conjure in their minds when reading this verse. It IS a FRIENDSHIP relationship (John 15: 15).

    I agree. There have been numerous threads on this subject. There are two things we forget every time this subject comes up. The biblical word where we see "submit" is not that of authority, but cooperation. The second thing we forget about is that both husbands and wives are told elsewhere to submit to each other, and to love each other. But we get stuck on this one verse that says "wives, submit to your husbands" to assume that husbands don't have to submit to their wives. If that were true, then when the same verse says "husbands, love your wives", that must mean that wives need not love their husbands.

    Indeed, both husbands and wives must submit to each other, and both husbands and wives must love each other.

    For more details, feel free to check out the many other threads on this board about the same subject.
     
  20. Jonathan

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    Of course what you leave of here is that a marriage between a husband and wife is to model the marriage between Christ and the church. Surely you don't suggest that Christ should submit to the church in the same way that the church should submit to Christ.

    Headship is clearly a biblical teaching in this passage.
     

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