Woman Dies on Floor of Hospital Awaiting Treatment

Discussion in 'Politics' started by carpro, Jul 3, 2008.

  1. carpro

    carpro
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    This may be a preview of a government run healthcare program.


    http://www.sunherald.com/395/story/659065.html

    Video shows woman dying on Brooklyn hospital floor
    By DAVID B. CARUSO
    Associated Press Writer

    EXCERPT

    NEW YORK --City hospital officials agreed in court Tuesday to implement reforms at a psychiatric ward where surveillance footage showed a woman falling from her chair, writhing on the floor and dying as workers failed to help for more than an hour.

    Esmin Green, 49, had been waiting in the emergency room for nearly 24 hours when she toppled from her seat at 5:32 a.m. on June 19, falling face down on the floor.
     
  2. David Lamb

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    Is your point that this sort of thing could not happen in a hospital that was not government run?
     
  3. donnA

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    From my posts on the other thread of this same topic,

    We aren't shown the entire video, so we don't even know if there is something that even indicates medical staff even knew she was in need of immediate medical help.
     
  4. Sopranette

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    Actually, you can see one of the security guards roll over in his chair, take a quick peek, then pushes himself back off screen. So somebody DID know. And another guard just stands there staring for a minute.

    love,

    Sopranette
     
    #4 Sopranette, Jul 3, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 3, 2008
  5. Andre

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    Anecdotal speculation. Besides, a scriptural case can be mounted for government run healthcare.
     
  6. Revmitchell

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    Of Course. It is the 11th commandment:

    Thou shalt steal from one to give to another.
     
  7. carpro

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    The apathy and non productivity of government employees is a well established fact.

    Would that attitude be carried over into a government run healthcare program?

    You'll have to bet your life that it won't. If you lose...
     
  8. just-want-peace

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    This explains a whole passel of liberal programs Rev.; thanks!!

    ('Course, to tell the truth, the "conservatives" are trying their best to ketch up to the "libs"; and doing a darn good job of it too!):BangHead::BangHead:
     
  9. Andre

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    Given that rational and compassionate members of a society do not see taxations as "stealing", then I indeed have scriptural support for universal health care:

    When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

    "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

    "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'


    Universal health care does not involve "stealing" - it is simply a manifestation of a compassionate society, one in which people have collectively determined that they will contribute via taxation to a system whereby health care is ensured for all.

    Why anyone would see such a system as involving "stealing" is beyond me. And I would not to have to explain; at a time of judgement, that I did not support such a societal initiative because I felt the the government was "stealing" my money.

    I expect that the judge (and we all know who that will be) would argue that in fact it was "His" money.
     
  10. Revmitchell

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    Aside from the fact that it is stealing and aside from the fact that it is slavery, it is also poor stewardship to funnel money through the government. It unnecessarily runs up costs to unmanageably levels, has been a failure every where it is implemented. Christian communism is evil and no scriptural case can be made. Your biblical applications skills are rather poor.
     
  11. Andre

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    I will set my scriptural interpretation skills against yours any day of the week, my friend.

    The facts are these:

    1. The Kingdom of God has been initiated - it is not for the future only.

    2. It can be correctly characterized as a "political" kingdom in the sense that God has enthroned Christ as the ruler of this present world and its institutions, including government.

    3. Jesus expressed multipe times the imperative to care for the least of these.

    Now how sensible is it really to argue that Jesus' lordship over the world is actually to be excluded from the realm of the very governmental institutions of which rule over it?

    Is caring for the poor in every sense a "kingdom of God" value? Yes it is.

    Has Jesus been given all authority here on Earth? Yes, He has.

    Will He not claim his authority in the area of governmental insitutions? Or is that an area He is really not lord of after all? And if He will claim such authority, will that authority not take the form of the body of his church advocating for the enshrinement of all "kingdom of God" values in government?

    I look forward to your engaging my points with specific reference to the Scriptures. I have my texts ready. I assume you will have yours.
     
  12. Revmitchell

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    You want me to prove with scripture what is not there?

    1. No scripture commands us to collect taxes and redistribute wealth.
    2. Taking away from one to give to another hurts the one it is being taken from.
    3. Government run health care unnecessarily runs up health care costs therefore is poor stewardship.
    4. Your logic (as flawed as it is) is that if God is to be Lord over government and if we are to care for the poor then government should be the means which the poor are cared for.
    5.Caring for the poor can be done any number of ways. Government run health care is poor stewardship due to excessive and unnecessary costs.
    6. Neither the government nor individuals can supply all needs for everyone hence the biblical principle " if you don't work you don't eat".
    7.The problems with health care isnt lack of government control it is lawsuits and illegal immigration.
    8. We need to lower costs not control it via the government.

    As far as your interpretation skills they have been obvious to everyone.
     
  13. Andre

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    The Jubilee Laws from Leviticus are precisely what you claim to be absent, namely a "legal" obligation to re-distribute wealth. I happen to believe tha the Jubilee Law, as a law, has passed away. But it would be hard to argue that the principle has died - that God was once interested in legally prescribing re-distribution of wealth, but is somehow no longer interested in this:

    'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells some of his property, his nearest relative is to come and redeem what his countryman has sold. 26 If, however, a man has no one to redeem it for him but he himself prospers and acquires sufficient means to redeem it, 27 he is to determine the value for the years since he sold it and refund the balance to the man to whom he sold it; he can then go back to his own property. 28 But if he does not acquire the means to repay him, what he sold will remain in the possession of the buyer until the Year of Jubilee. It will be returned in the Jubilee, and he can then go back to his property

    This is re-distribution of wealth, mandated by law.

    And even apart from this clear and direct scriptural mandate for wealth redistribution, I suspect you stand virtually alone if you are arguing that taxation is not a necessary part of a society structured accoriding to Kingdom of God values. The problem you face is the clear teaching the Kingdom of God is already in force and that it extends to all human institutions.

    So the conclusion is unavoidable: given that Jesus is Lord of all earthly governments, taxation is a fundamental mode of enacting clear kingdom of God values (help to the poor) in that sphere of human activity.
     
  14. Revmitchell

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    No taxation is not a fundamentall mode of anything except communism.
     
  15. carpro

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    Why do you bother?

    Canadians won't be happy until we are as miserable and "taken care of" as they are.
     
  16. Andre

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    As per usual, scriptural arguments are responded to with this kind of vaporous, content impoverished fluff.

    I despair of anyone here really being interested in what the scriptures have to say. But if there are any out there, how about actually engaging the argument based on Leviticus 25 - a case where God has clearly and unambiguously mandated redistribution of wealth by force of law.
     
  17. windcatcher

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    Sorry 'bout this opinion which will upset you: But, although I'm not calling you stupid.....your use of scripture to support government run healthcare is stupid:

    Scripture supports the liberty of people to live under the rule of God Almighty: When a people can no longer or will no longer live under his rule, then kings and governments replace the position God should have had: Kings and governments are not God, and the scriptures clearly tell, as when the Israelites complained to Samuel for a king 'like the other nations', God directed Samuel to warn them that their petition was heard and what a king would mean. A king, or government with the power to rule, has the power to control, to take what isn't it's own, to lay claim to people, cattle and horses, food, lands and houses, precious minerals and other natural resources, and to determine, what.....if any....it will 'give back', to declare war in its own interest (i.e. the rulers) and compel the people to fight.

    There is nothing righteous about governments and governments are not designed to pursue an interest higher than the men that fill the offices: Unless Godly men fill the offices of government, the leaders will pursue the goals of the unregenerate human heart...... and serve their own purpose even at the expense of those who they (reportedly) are meant to serve....i.e. the interest of the citizenry.

    You can not find me enough scripture to support your belief that a godless government will perform the righteous acts of God.

    God does sometimes move upon the ungodly to chose benevolently in favor of those who live righteously before him..... but it is a reward to the righteous and comes from God; it doesn't come naturally from the unregenerate nature of man.

    Likewise, when the people turn their trust in God to a trust in men and government for their security and provision, they are daring God to 'reward' them (punishment) by withdrawing himself from the witchcraft of their evil backsliding and allow the evil of other men and government to become a burden and a rod of correction: Unfortunately, there will always be the stiff-necked and stubborned who will not turn back to God, but will persue their own corruptions of lust in the evil of the men which rule and enslave them.
     
  18. sag38

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    Sort of reminds me of how JW's twist scripture to suggest that the arch angel Michael is Jesus or how the Mormans twist it to support baptism for the dead or how a man I knew twisted it to support sleeping with all the women he wanted too, or how mary jane smokers use it to justify their addiction.
     
  19. JustChristian

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    Poor folks like this woman die in wretched conditions like this because they don't have any money or insurance. The rich people are over at Columbia Presbyterian. Our medical system is falling apart now. Just imagine what it will be like when the Boomers start to retire en mass in about 5 years. Companies are taking away retirement medical as a benefit, even taking it away from people who are already retired. Remember when we used to say that we had the best medical care in the world? Well, here is the current reality:

    The World Health Organization's ranking
    of the world's health systems.
    Source: WHO World Health Report
    ________________________________________
    Rank Country


    1 France
    2 Italy
    3 San Marino
    4 Andorra
    5 Malta
    6 Singapore
    7 Spain
    8 Oman
    9 Austria
    10 Japan
    11 Norway
    12 Portugal
    13 Monaco
    14 Greece
    15 Iceland
    16 Luxembourg
    17 Netherlands
    18 United Kingdom
    19 Ireland
    20 Switzerland
    21 Belgium
    22 Colombia
    23 Sweden
    24 Cyprus
    25 Germany
    26 Saudi Arabia
    27 United Arab Emirates
    28 Israel
    29 Morocco
    30 Canada
    31 Finland
    32 Australia
    33 Chile
    34 Denmark
    35 Dominica
    36 Costa Rica
    37 United States of America
    38 Slovenia
    39 Cuba
    40 Brunei
    41 New Zealand
    42 Bahrain
    43 Croatia

    Well, at least we edged out Cuba and Croatia.
     
  20. windcatcher

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    Yes! Assuredly you can almost count on it:

    I worked in a government funded but privately 'non-profit' administered mental rehabilitation program, for almost 22years (lacking just a few months).

    The original operation of the hospital, or rehabilitation program, was very well staffed and funded. It was on the cutting edge and well positioned for competition for funds in the promise that it would reduce the expense of intensive state institutionalizations of the mentally ill by retraining their institutionalized behaviors and dependancies, and teaching or restoring their abilities to take care of daily needs and provide a degree of socialization behaviors which would help them blend better into society into which most would be placed.

    Through the years, the funding went down and so did the staffing: The research project, by which some of the funds might have been granted, were completed as some got their higher degrees and recognition and left for higher paying positions. Of the original staff which were there when I went to work in 1980, only one housekeeper, the medical director, and myself where there at the time I terminated.

    During the years we 'progressed' through a number of changes....some brought about by changing regulations and some brought about by changing Privately run administrations and philosophy: Economics was always a factor and elections and budgets seemed to go hand in hand. So was the leanings of most people employed there...... their vote steered by their pocketbook and job security.

    I always saw my job security as an outgrowth of committment to a hard work ethic, following the directions of my employer in supporting policy, in faithfulness in work attendance, and in carrying out the duties of my job responsibly (including what ever diversified duties might be added).

    During those years, I struggle hoping for better evaluations, but it always seemed my evaluations were the opposite from what I would have expected: I would be praised for the very areas I felt weak in, and many areas of strength and priority necessity, would receive just average notes and remarks or less....even.....sometimes with trumped up allegations of one time occurrence..... "you didn't deliver the meal to a patient after completeing meal rounds'...... well, duh! The patient had been manic and not eating or sleeping normally for 3 days and the RN told me that an emergency sleeper had been given during my meal rounds duties and she (the medical doctor and the RN) wanted the patient to sleep it out and get her meal upon waking.... so I properly labeled (name, date, time) and placed in refrigeration and passed the word on in report: Or 'on such and such date you failed to record the close observation rounds on Pts X and Y' ....... Well you say and how should I do that when my supervisor removes me from the floor to transport a patient to an outside appointment because the facility driver is NA? Supervisor was told of my assignment of close-observations during that period. She says I should ask another tech to do them..... but I have no authority for enforcing. "You were assigned the security rounds and checked them off as having been done at the start of the shift after which a visitor entered the building during the night." 'That is very possible when staff have access to the same keys and can come and go during the night: when I'm aware I double check the doors.... but there are occasions when I'm not near the door or desk to know a door has been unlocked and my duties include assisting patients, doing rounds and close-observations, taking supplies between units, checking the chart for compliance with date/time/signatures on each progress note and doctors orders transferred, ordering unit supplies and restocking and stuffing charts and filing consults, plus charting the progress and incidents on patients during my shift. With as many as 40 patients on my unit, often I was the only tech and the LPN was the only other staff: We might have an RN on duty on my unit, but many nights there would be just one RN dividing his/her time between the two units.

    Frequently the position of LPN or RN was filled in by 'agency' nurses. They came with their own expertise or lack thereof, and sometimes their own baggage regarding 'psych-wards'.

    One was absent from my unit for more than 45 minutes when a patient called me to check on his roommate.... I called all the units (one other unit on our floor and a secure unity for stablization and observation) and couldn't locate but left messages that nurse was needed stat.... Immediately went to check on the patient and found him ashened and complaining of chest pain and in a cold sweat. Roommate told me he had just gone to bathroom and returned what seemed okay... then complained upon lying down. I took note of the time. I made the emergency call 'code blue'. The nurse, who'd almost reached the unit, told me later, she spun around to get the crash cart and couldn't find it. The roommate was helpful in watching the hall for me to see if staff or other patients entered while I stayed with the patient to offer comfort and monitor vital signs. EMS came and transported the patient from West Fl Community Care to local hospital: The nurse got the order for transfer but was unfamiliar with our charts and papers needed to go with patient. I knew and pulled those sheets, copied and stamped 'confidential' and she sent me to hospital. I arrived in time to turn the papers over and to confirm to the physician the aproximate time of the patient's discomfort. EMS personnell reported to me their evaluation that he was just suffering an anxiety attack..... which can mimick a heart attack. But the doctor's evaluation was a heart attack and with the information I was able to give him, he was able to administer a anti clot agent successfully. I recently 'ran into' "Larry" when I took my brother to his VA appointment.... and he remembered that time about 10 years ago.

    Spring of 2002, my job was terminated for 'cause' (1) too judgemental, (2) doesn't get along with staff (3) power struggles with patients. I drew (a failed challenged) unemployment and tried to find work but 2002 was not a good year for looking for work for a 54y/o. But I can say one thing...... with all its ups and downs....... God has provided for my needs and the stress I carried back then and the oppression which I was under during that last administration, He carried me through without realizing until it was no longer with me.

    Though it was 'privately' administered, it was state funded. Though I got no salary nor perks comparable with civil service, staff who partied after hours and during hours 'assumed' their work while visiting on other units, often got credit for their 'efficiency' which existed on paper only.

    I figure I was a liability: They could hire my replacement for $3 less, get someone younger with more energy and perhaps more ambition than to hold that position and be content with what they made and what they gave. Also, I had 600 hours of sick leave in reserve.... accumulating at the same rate as everyone else, but a liability IF I got sick and required significant time off, plus, my vacation leave of 4 weeks a years due to longevity, was a conflict with new comers who would never see vacation leave accrue above 2 weeks.

    continued--------------------
     

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