"Women having authority"

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Matt Black, Jun 17, 2005.

  1. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    To put it bluntly, when some say that the Bible (and especially St Paul) forbid women to have authority or headship over men, what does that really mean?

    In this context, what do we mean by "authority"? What does it consist of? Is it just about teaching or is it about controlling or directing? In what areas is it applicable? Should such authority apply solely to church matters or across the whole spectrum of life? If there are limits on where it is to be applied, what are they and why are they?

    I will freely confess that this is something where I have strong views. My personal opinion is that the passages such as 1 Tim 2 need to be understood within the context of when they were written and that there is no "biblical directive" in force today that restricts women in leadership in the church in anyway. But, given that there are many who would argue that women should NOT have authority, I am trying to understand their position and why they take certain standpoints but not others.

    I know that some will say that there is no "one-size-fits-all" answer and say, in effect," it's a matter of Christian liberty. Depends who. Depends where. Depends why. Depends what. Depends how."

    But I find that unsatisfactorily vague. I'm not looking for detailed specifics to every conceivable situation - just to have some sense of what broad principles are supposedly at work here.

    Would it be OK for a woman to be President of the USA but not to be a Bishop? Would it be OK for a woman to have authority over male teenagers as a youth group leader or youth worker, but not over the same people as a pastor/minister? If my wife tells me to throw out a pair of favourite trousers because they are old and tatty and she refuses to be seen with me in public if I am wearing them - is that "having authority" and should I resist her on biblical grounds? And if not, why not?

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  2. Gold Dragon

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  3. The Bible Answer Kid

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  4. Debby in Philly

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  5. music4Him

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    In the church I cannot see a woman as a "pastor of the church" (overseer), BUT I can see her preaching the gospel, being an evangelist, ministering to others, and teaching others about Christ...ect, as long as she is Christian and a disciple of Christ. Even in a church when a woman preaches she better realize she is still under the authority of those above her. (i.e... #1) the Lord #2) her husband #3) her pastor. Just as Christian men must realize that the Lord is over all. In the world also she better realize if she becomes the Prez. of the USA she will still have someone in authority over her. So she better make certian that she is "called" for the ministry and do her homework and realize that if she errs she will answer for it just as every one else will.
     
  6. hamricba

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    Also strongly recommend Wayne Grudem's, "Evangelical Feminism and Biblical Truth." It reveals the poor exegesis on the part of most egalitarians and attempts to refute every known argument for getting around the plain meaning of 1 Tim. 2-3 and other passages. Tries to use the full counsel of God rather than undermining it with one passage or another through prooftexting.
     
  7. Briguy

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    The clear teaching in regards to women in the "the church" is that for God's character to be seen in the gathered assembly a woman cannot have authority over or teach men. When that occurs God's character is not seen. It is a poor example to the unsaved who need to see the character of God in it's fullness. God designed men and womem differently and He gave us different strengths. Men are stronger in leadership by God's design. They are not better by any means, just have different strengths. Women are much stronger then men in the areas that God has designed them to be strong in. It is all about accepting our roles and showing God's character within the structure of the local assembly (church).

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  8. hillclimber

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    I Tim Chapter 2 covers it and vs. 14 says Eve was deceived by Satan, where Adam was not. It is womans niavete, and susceptibility to deception that prevents her from leadership positions over man.
    Also she was formed second I Tim 2:13 and according to the context she is prevented from teaching and having authority over man. vs.13
     
  9. music4Him

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    So are you saying when Priscilla helped Aquilla tell Appolos about Jesus she messed up because she was putting herself in authority?
    -------------------------------------------------------
    Now if any woman went into church barred the doors and bypassed the preacher with no reguard to him, then proceeded to get behind the pupit and preach another Jesus and tell the congragation they have to belive it her way or they couldn't leave...then yes I could see inforcing 1 Tim. 2

    usurp- to take or assume and hold (power, position,rights...ect) by force or without right.
     
  10. hillclimber

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  11. hillclimber

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  12. hillclimber

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    Nope
     
  13. Briguy

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    I didn't say that either. We are discussing local assemblies and the roles that men and woman have within them. Sharing Jesus with the lost "out in the world" is a different subject altogether.

    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  14. Lorelei

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    I believe the context of the passage in Timothy was relating to the church. But men are also to be the leaders in the home.

    Women are not to teach or have authority. That shouldn't be too dificult to understand. We normally understand what these words mean, but for some reason, in this context we try to add or take away from that meaning. Again, the context is the church, so in a formal learning setting, women should not have authority or teach men. Does that mean as a woman I can't have conversations with men in which they might actually learn something? No. It means I am not to sit down and instruct them formally, taking them on as my student.

    Women are to share the gospel, and many did. The woman at the well told everyone about the One she met. Mary Magdalene was able to share the important event of the ressurection with the male disciples. In the book of Romans Paul sent greetings to women who worked hard in the Lord. There is much work to be done and women played a vital role in getting it done, as I am certain they still do.

    But they can not have authority over men. Men should never be accountable to the woman. Men may decide to relgate certain responsibilities to the woman, but in the end she is accountable to the man, it is not the other way around.

    Someone has already pointed out that Paul said why this had to be the case. It was Eve and her deception. That is a reason that does not change with the times. For this reason women should always have a submissive role in relation to men and leadership.

    ~Lorelei
     
  15. Marcia

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    The article ignores 1 Cor. 11.3. I think that is a universal principle given by God that cannot be overturned, along with passages about Eve being deceived. I agree with Lorelei.

    The article also makes the straw man argument that those who believe women cannot be pastors think women are inferior. That is not the basis for believing women cannot be pastors.

    Also, the arguments used are ably refuted here:
    http://tinyurl.com/3q6dw

    Also, check out this site:
    http://www.cbmw.org/questions/
     
  16. Daisy

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    So Matt gets to keep his ratty trousers?
     
  17. Lorelei

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    Well, if he insisted. But he would not do that if he loves his wife as Christ loved the church! No respectable man would put his wife through such a tortuous moment as to be seen publically with a man in ratty apparal! [​IMG]

    ~Lorelei
     
  18. bmerr

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    Matt,

    bmerr here. No Bible with me, so I'm shooting from the hip. Contextually, Paul is speaking of religious authority. The reason a woman is not to teach or usurp authority over the man is based on things that took place in the garden of Eden, both the Creation order, and the deception by Satan.

    Since the home is a God-ordained institution, Male headship is in order there, too. Sadly, many men leave this responsibility by leaving the home, actually or practically.

    In no case does this mean that men can run rough-shod over women. Nor does it mean that women are not capable as leaders. Any honest husband/father will readliy admit his need for the council and partnership of his wife.

    Any honest elder, deacon, or preacher will certainly affirm the need for women in the congregation to be active in their appropriate roles.

    Bottom line is that male leadership is what God designed. Deviation from His design is an invitation to destruction.

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     
  19. Frank

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    It would be most difficult for a woman to be the husband of one wife.
     

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