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Women in Leadership (not as pastor, but in leadership)

Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by mercy4all, Nov 18, 2008.

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  1. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    I know.
    What were they thinking? For shame!
    Patron=man, patroness=WOman; Duh!
    Sounds like they could use a remedial course at the Institute for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood or a week at the Vision Forum Reeducation Bootcamp.
     
    #101 Jerome, Nov 17, 2009
  2. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Yet 'patron' doesn't really describe what she was for them, IMO. I personally see "patron" as a customer. LOL
     
    #102 annsni, Nov 17, 2009
  3. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Yes it is. Now was she a leader or was she a servant/helper like the vast majority of women with the gift of service? For example, put me in a church situation and I'll do anything that needs doing. For funerals, I put together the service on the computer, put together the slide show for the family/service, make sure there is good soothing music playing during the funeral visitation and that sort of thing. Additionally, I put together a basket for the family to keep up front with water bottles, tissues, pain reliever, hand sanitizer, mints and throat lozenges. I've had the pastor tell some of the young men in the church to ask me if there was anything that I needed them to do because I do end up running around doing a lot of things. So I guess I'm a leader?
     
    #103 annsni, Nov 17, 2009
  4. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    But we are discussing leadership positions. A deacon in the biblical sense is not in a leadership position in the way we are discussing.
     
    #104 Marcia, Nov 17, 2009
  5. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Then I'm afraid we do not understanding in the same way.
     
    #105 TCGreek, Nov 18, 2009
  6. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Can you give some scriptural support that Phoebe was a deacon in the sense of being a leader, and that the word "deacon" always implies leadership?

    Meanwhile, I'm posting this footnote on Rom. 16:2 from the online Net Bible (at netbible.org):
    This is very thin ice upon which to base a view that Phoebe was a leader and it is certainly not enough to say women can be leaders over men in the church.
     
    #106 Marcia, Nov 19, 2009
  7. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    That is from verse 1, not verse 2.
    In verse 2, she is called prostatis, which means "a woman set over others".
     
    #107 Jerome, Nov 19, 2009
  8. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Right, that footnote was from verse 1 - sorry about that. I was fixated on the "deacon" thing.

    Here is verse 2 in the NET Bible:

    Here's more:
    Translating that word as "helper"

    http://biblos.com/romans/16-2.htm
     
    #108 Marcia, Nov 19, 2009
  9. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    http://bible.cc/romans/16-2.htm

    Only Young's Literal has that word as "leader." All the above have "helper" except one that has Kind friend."
     
    #109 Marcia, Nov 19, 2009
  10. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Notice that the NET note is a commentary, not an actual translation.

    For what it's worth, the NET has an overly zealous complementarian agenda.

    By the way, I'm a convinced complementarian. :thumbs:
     
    #110 TCGreek, Nov 20, 2009
  11. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Add Contemporary English Version "respected leader"
    and English Standard Version "patron".
     
    #111 Jerome, Nov 20, 2009
  12. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    But what about all the other translations I posted?

    I'm an unapologetic complementarian, too!
     
    #112 Marcia, Nov 20, 2009
  13. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    What about the TNIV, NRSV, NLT?
     
    #113 TCGreek, Nov 20, 2009
  14. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    The ESV have "patron" but the NLT has this:
    The NRSV and TNIV have "benefactor," which certainly does not imply leadership, nor does "patron."


    Prostatis
    Nothing here implies leadership, especially leadership over men. "Set over others" does not mean leadership; it seems that along with the other meanings, it implies being a benefactor, someone who aids. So how are people getting leadership from this??
     
    #114 Marcia, Nov 20, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2009
  15. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Marcia, from what word is prostatis derived?
     
    #115 Jerome, Nov 20, 2009
  16. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I know what it's derived from (proistemi) and I know what that means (manage, be in rule over, preside over) but that is not how the translators translated it. Prostatis does not mean manager or ruler.
     
    #116 Marcia, Nov 20, 2009
  17. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    [FONT=Times New Roman,Times] [/FONT]
    http://preceptaustin.org/romans_16_word_studies.htm

    She was a patron, not in leadership.
    [FONT=Times New Roman,Times]
    [/FONT]
     
    #117 Marcia, Nov 20, 2009
  18. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    One can be a leader but not a leader over men. I had to answer to my boss at church today - a woman. She is one of my bosses in the responsibility of planning the service. She, in turn, answers to the pastors but they usually leave the planning and scheduling of the service to her responsibility. She is also in charge of all of the women's ministries and about half of the counseling ministry towards women. So she would be considered a "prostasis" but she is not out of the realm of Biblical guidelines of leadership.
     
    #118 annsni, Nov 20, 2009
  19. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Set over others?
    Exercising authority over the group?
    Sounds like leadership to me:thumbs:
     
    #119 Jerome, Nov 21, 2009
  20. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    Why you wish to deny women leadership in the church, I will never know, because Scripture is certainly not on your side.
     
    #120 TCGreek, Nov 21, 2009
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