Women in the church?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by awaken, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. awaken

    awaken
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    "Did the apostle Paul say that women can't have short hair? (1 Corinthians 11:1-16). What did he mean about a woman's "covering," and about women being silent in church, and about women not teaching, and so on? Can women be deacons or elders or pastors or apostles?"
     
  2. Deacon

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    Hey buddy, one controversial topic per thread please.

    Rob
     
  3. SolaSaint

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    We usually shoot any Wemon found in our church. Keeps them from coming around. :laugh::laugh:
     
  4. awaken

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    Funny Guys...:applause:

    Many Christians have some uncertainty or confusion about various Scriptural issues concerning women, and I have wrestled with these issues as well.

    I will start here....

    Women Will be "Saved" through Childbearing
    1 Timothy 2:15: "But women will be saved [sozo] through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety."

    When we talk about being "saved," we usually mean that we are saved from the penalty of our sins. In other words, our sins have been forgiven and we will go to heaven when we die. But notice what happens if we take the above verse at face value. We might be tempted to think that if women give birth then their sins will be forgiven and they will go to heaven when they die, because Paul said that they will be "saved" through childbearing.

    The problem with this interpretation is that if we do a thorough study of what the New Testament teaches about salvation, we'll find that salvation is based solely on having faith in Jesus as our Savior. Nothing else can save us, and therefore Paul was not speaking of salvation in the verse above.

    This illustrates an important point about studying the Bible. If we simply take a verse at face value, without doing a prayerful, thorough, and objective study of the rest of Scripture (or at least the rest of the New Testament), then it's easy to form some false conclusions.
     
  5. Gina B

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    Agreed. Women should stay home and bake! Beats sitting in the church nursery changing the poopy diapers of some stranger's kid. That should be a man job, our weak constitutions can't handle that mess.

    Can we make this part of the fundamentals? Please? Who is in charge of those, and does he like peanut butter cookies? :tongue3:
     
  6. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Naaa, just send them over ta me.....I will take care of them:D
     
  7. Arbo

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    ...And will Mrs. EWF take care of you? :tonofbricks::laugh:
     
  8. preachinjesus

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    You know...I'm just gonna stay out of this one...this will be fun to watch...
     
  9. awaken

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    Sounds like this has been discussed before on this forum:smilewinkgrin:

    1 Timothy 2:15 ("women will be saved through childbearing") is a difficult verse to understand. The important thing to recognize here is that Paul was not teaching that women will receive salvation (be allowed into heaven) based on whether or not they have given birth to children, because that would contradict the clear teaching of Scripture which says that salvation is based on having faith in Jesus as our Savior.

    It is important not to simply take a verse at face value, but instead we should try to look at the greatest weight of evidence in the Bible to see what God is trying to tell us. I saw looking at this scripture that translations of the Bible can sometimes be misleading, which is why it's often helpful to look at the meanings of the Greek words to get a better idea of what the author was saying.
     
  10. Revmitchell

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    Only a few hundred times.
     
  11. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Er ....ahhhh, no comment!;)
     
  12. awaken

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    Well, I guess I have not said anything controversial yet..because no one has attacked me yet!:saint:

    Must Women Have Long Hair or Cover Their Heads?
    In 1 Corinthians 11:4-18 This passage needs to be understood in the context of the culture in which Paul lived. Here are some things that various Bible scholars say about this passage:

    "11:4 ... In the culture of Paul's day, men uncovered their heads in worship to signify their respect for and submission to deity. When a man prayed or prophesied with his head covered, he failed to show the proper attitude toward Christ.

    11:5-6 For a woman, taking off her head covering in public and exposing her hair was a sign of loose morals and sexual promiscuity. Paul says she might as well have her hair cut or shaved off. The shaved head indicated that the woman either had been publicly disgraced because of some shameful act or was openly flaunting her independence and her refusal to be in submission to her husband. Paul's message to her was: Show your respect for and submission to your husband by covering your head during public worship." (NIV Study Bible, p.2218, emphasis added)


    "it was a custom, both among the Greeks and Romans, and among the Jews an express law, that no woman should be seen abroad without a veil. This was, and is, a common custom through all the east, and none but public prostitutes go without veils. ... As a woman who dresses loosely or fantastically, even in the present day, is considered a disgrace to her husband, because suspected to be not very sound in her morals; so in those ancient times, a woman appearing without a veil would be considered in the same light." (Clarke, from http://www.e-sword.net/commentaries.html , 1 Corinthians 11:5, emphasis added)

    When I come across passages that I don't understand (or I don't like), it would be very convenient to say that those passages were only valid in the first century and they don't apply to us today. But I need to be careful because that approach can easily lead me into error. Still, there's no doubt that some New Testament passages don't literally apply to Christians today. For example, in Romans 15:30-31 the apostle Paul urged people to pray that he would be rescued from the unbelievers in Judea, but there's no point in praying for Paul today because he has been dead for almost two thousand years. Therefore, certain New Testament passages don't apply today as they did in the first century.

    There's some agreement among Bible scholars that in Paul's culture it was appropriate for a woman to physically have a covering over her head during public worship. There are different opinions about whether a woman's long hair was sufficient as a covering, or whether all women (or just married women) had to wear cloth over their heads, but there's general agreement that this was based on the social customs of Paul's time.

    Paul said that a woman should cover her head if it's a disgrace for her to have her hair cut or shaved off. It was a disgrace in Paul's culture for a woman to have her hair cut in this way (see the Bible commentary quotes above), but this is not a disgrace in modern Western culture. Therefore, many Bible commentaries agree that Christian women today don't need to obey first-century social customs concerning hair length or a physical "covering."

    In 1 Corinthians 11:5 Paul said that women should be "covered" when they pray or prophesy, which refers to public prayer or public prophesying in church (according to many Bible commentaries). In 1 Corinthians 11:16-18, Paul specifically placed his instructions in the context of church meetings, which demonstrates that women are allowed to pray and prophesy out loud in church. This helps shed some light on another difficult passage concerning women's roles and actions in the church....
     
  13. convicted1

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    Except for potluck sunday.........:thumbs: :thumbs:
     
  14. awaken

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    Must Women Be Silent in Church?
     
  15. convicted1

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    To question #1: Nope. Keep'em shaved and in the back pew....


    #2: When they enter the church, the women need to have a blanket wrapped around their body with duct tape over their mouth.....that'll show'em......

    #3: Women shouldn't teach, because those who have been burned in a previous marriage, would teach the younger ladies who are engaged to say this(in Eddie Murphy Raw style), "I want half"!

    #4: A lot of women are "elder" in their church, but they will never tell anyone how "elder" they are....or is that elderly????


    J/k with ya Sister.
     
  16. convicted1

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    In all seriousness, it's written silence, and not silent. I believe that what this means is that they are not to preach. If they were to keep silence, then they wouldn't be even able to sing, or shout praises to the King Eternal.
     
  17. preachinjesus

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    The search function for this forum is a wonderful tool to use in checking to see what we have or have not spoke of, we encourage it's use.
     
  18. awaken

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    What is prophesying by your definition?
     
  19. Gina B

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    I would love to see a true debate on this topic, or at least a really good reading recommendation!

    So many different ideas get tossed around that I have a hard time knowing what I think about it anymore! There's my personal conviction...which always takes me back to thinking no, women shouldn't be pastors, but why not evangelists? No, not comfortable with the idea of women teaching an adult class that has men in it, but okay with women teaching kids. I'm not even comfortable praying in a group if men are present, feel like that should be up to the guys.

    But...there seems to be a lot of evidence that I'm wrong, and a lot of evidence that I'm right. Why is this such a strong and ongoing argument in the church if the Bible really addresses the issue? In the few places it does, the interpretations vary wildly. How are we supposed to know what the truth is on this matter? Drive me nuts...
     
  20. preachinjesus

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    I'd recommend:
    Two Views on Women in Ministry which does a great job discussing a difficult subject with a fair amount of objectivity.
    http://www.amazon.com/dp/031025437X/?tag=baptis04-20

    Rediscovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood this is a free pdf book from the Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood
    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...-YHwAw&usg=AFQjCNEmq4Tbn5x7MIBMjo6bJYIji8t3bw

    Men and Women in the Church this is a pretty generous attempt at building consensus on a rough issue.
    http://www.amazon.com/dp/0830823913/?tag=baptis04-20

    Women in the Church: An Analysis and Application of 1 Timothy 2:9-15 Schreiner is really on the mark with a balanced exegesis.
    http://www.amazon.com/dp/080102904X/?tag=baptis04-20

    Hope these get you started.
     

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