Women Pastors

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by hillbilly, Jan 16, 2002.

  1. hillbilly

    hillbilly
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    Personally I don't believe that scripture supports ordination of women but I have heard many people that do advocate this position but I have never heard any of them give any scriptural support to this position. From what I heard on another thread their are a few people on the board who do support the postion would any of you please give just scriptural support for your belief on this.

    Thanks
    Eric Null
     
  2. susanpet

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    For the record, I don't support women pastors either. The bible gives enough evidence against it.
     
  3. MarciontheModerateBaptist

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    The Bible gives no evidence against women pastors.
    First, the Bible never uses the word "pastor." Our modern-day creation of the office of pastor was not actually a position when the biblical books were written.
    Most people's arguments against the ordination of woman are based on the silence of the biblical records - not outright condemnation of female ordination. For instance, many fundamentalists use the I Timothy passage about a leader being the "husband of one wife." To come to conclusion that Paul is saying women cannot be leaders because men cannot have more than one wife is ridiculous. It is an argument based on silence.
    Throughout Scripture, women are given places of leadership in the church. OT examples of women judges and prophets abound. The NT gives examples of women church house leaders and teachers of men (Priscilla is just one example).
    In conclusion, the Bible is silent on women in leadership. It is wrong to draw a conclusion based on silence which hinders half the world's population from serving God however they feel called to do so.

    Daniel Payne http://communities.msn.com/ModerateSouthernBaptists

    [ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: paynedaniel ]
     
  4. DocCas

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by paynedaniel:
    The Bible gives no evidence against women pastors.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The Bible gives a lot of evidence that women are not to pastor. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>First, the Bible never uses the word "pastor."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Our modern-day creation of the office of pastor was not actually a position when the biblical books were written.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>See above. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Most people's arguments against the ordination of woman are based on the silence of the biblical records - not outright condemnation of female ordination. For instance, many fundamentalists use the I Timothy passage about a leader being the "husband of one wife." To come to conclusion that Paul is saying women cannot be leaders because men cannot have more than one wife is ridiculous. It is an argument based on silence.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
    Throughout Scripture, women are given places of leadership in the church. OT examples of women judges and prophets abound. The NT gives examples of women church house leaders and teachers of men (Priscilla is just one example).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Priscilla is never mentioned apart from her husband Aquila. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In conclusion, the Bible is silent on women in leadership. It is wrong to draw a conclusion based on silence which hinders half the world's population from serving God however they feel called to do so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You may ignore all the scriptures dealing with the qualifications of men for the pastorate, and the fact that women are specifically told not to have authority over a man, and not to teach men, but by so doing you ignore the very word of God.

    [ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: Thomas Cassidy ]
     
  5. MarciontheModerateBaptist

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    Thomas,

    You mistake the English translation "pastor" for the original. The Greek text is not translated as pastors in every translation, and rightly so. As for women maintaing silence in the church - if you don't recognize this as a cultural command, then there's not much else I can say. Nearly every respected, educated biblical scholar (even conservative ones [​IMG]) point out that Paul was instructing women to remain quiet for the sake of not hindering the spread of the gospel.

    Daniel Payne
     
  6. garpier

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    Daniel,

    First you claim that the scriptures are silent on the matter of women preachers, and then when the scriptures are shown to you, you claim that they don't mean what they say. You can't have it both ways. Either they are silent (which they are not) or they mean what they say (and they do.)

    [ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: garpier ]
     
  7. MarciontheModerateBaptist

    MarciontheModerateBaptist
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    Garpier,

    I don't want to be mean, but you don't make any sense and you obviously do not understand the issue behind our discussion (English texts vs. the original language copies).

    Daniel
     
  8. DocCas

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by paynedaniel:
    Thomas,

    You mistake the English translation "pastor" for the original. The Greek text is not translated as pastors in every translation, and rightly so. As for women maintaing silence in the church - if you don't recognize this as a cultural command, then there's not much else I can say. Nearly every respected, educated biblical scholar (even conservative ones [​IMG]) point out that Paul was instructing women to remain quiet for the sake of not hindering the spread of the gospel.

    Daniel Payne
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I can see talking to you is a waste of time.

    Oh, and by the way, as to my supposed ignorance (according to you) regarding the original languages vice English, and being non-respected, uneducated, and not a scholar due to disagreeing with you, perhaps my curriculum vitae is in order.

    B.A., M.Div., Th.M., Th.D., D.Min. For the past 17 years, Professor of Church and Ecclesiastical History and Systematic Theology at San Diego Baptist Theological Seminary. Since 1987, Chairman of the Department of Biblical and Historical Theology. Instructor in Greek and Greek Exegesis. Instructor in Manuscript Evidence and Textual Criticism.

    Up until 1993, Professor of Philosophy and Baptist Ministry at Pacific Coast Baptist Bible College, San Diman, CA.

    But then, I am just ignorant, uneducated, unscholarly, and obviously not entitled to an opinion, especially if it disagrees with yours.
     
  9. Overdose

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    well if ya look at it this way.... as a preacher being someone who preaches the gospel. Gospel being the "good news". Good news as bing of Jesus death and being risen again. Going along this thought process, then that would make the first preacher ever a woman... Mary was the first to see Jesus risen, and went on to tell the others the "good news". hmmmm intresting isnt it?
    Just my 2 cents
    peace,
    OD
     
  10. DocCas

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    Overdose, if you well go back and read the posts I think you will see the discussion centers on the qualifications of the office of pastor, one of the two offices of the church that constitute an historic Baptist Distinctive, not about women telling others about the good news of the Lord Jesus Christ. [​IMG]
     
  11. Overdose

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:
    You may ignore all the scriptures dealing with the qualifications of men for the pastorate, and the fact that women are specifically told not to have authority over a man, and not to teach men, but by so doing you ignore the very word of God.

    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    It is easy to take scripture out of context, and to ignore issue's that were arising at the time it was written. If a woman has the anointing to preacher, then let her preach....
    peace,
    OD
     
  12. DocCas

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    OD, see the post just above yours. [​IMG]
     
  13. Overdose

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    :eek: sounds like tradition to me.
    OD

    [ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: ovrdose ]
     
  14. rlvaughn

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    Daniel, first, I would say you are a little harsh on garpier, because some of your statements are contradictory, such as: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>...The NT gives examples of women church house leaders and teachers of men (Priscilla is just one example).
    In conclusion, the Bible is silent on women in leadership...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You can't have it both ways.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>And perhaps you will note some of the other examples to whom you refer in the NT other than Priscilla so we may accurately reply. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Nearly every respected, educated biblical scholar (even conservative ones) point out that Paul was instructing women to remain quiet for the sake of not hindering the spread of the gospel.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This just flat ain't so. [note: flat and ain't be used so you will know I am neither respected nor educated, and don't claim to be :rolleyes: nevertheless your observation is too exaggerated to be true]
    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You mistake the English translation "pastor" for the original. The Greek text is not translated as pastors in every translation, and rightly so.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Surely you believe the Greek word translated "pastor" in the KJV in Eph. 4:11 must mean something. Perhaps you will tell us what it means.

    [ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
     
  15. John Wells

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    Daniel,

    Let me make a suggestion. You did the same thing here you did on the thread dealing with homosexuality, and that is you made statements without doing your homework, i.e. the Bible doesn't say this or the Bible is silent about that, only to be proven wrong. Then you side step, make excuses, and play a game of counter punch. Your credibility has been dashed on the rocks. The suggestion is: research what you type! :rolleyes:
     
  16. rlvaughn

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    BTW, Daniel, if we can't have "pastors", do you think it would be OK to have "shepherds"? Or maybe at least a church could have a "poimen"? What do you think? [​IMG]

    [ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
     
  17. stocksbo

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    paynedaniel wrote:
    __________________________________________
    For instance, many fundamentalists use the I Timothy passage about a leader being the "husband of one wife." To come to conclusion that Paul is saying women cannot be leaders because men cannot have more than one wife is ridiculous. It is an argument based on silence.
    __________________________________________

    Seems to me you are coming to a conclusion yourself. If we follow the scripture itself then we can't go wrong can we?


    God Bless!
     
  18. hillbilly

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    Actually I think that Paul was pretty liberal as far as womens rights for that time but his teaching does state that women are to be silent and take no leadership in the church and if they had any questions they are to ask their husbands .
    You know as I think about it through out history women have held some very important responsibilities in the home . Think about it how many times have you heard a pastor say that his momma made him go to church as a child read the bible to him prayed with him and for him and this example helped him through out his life. I feel that women have had to take up the spiritual leadership in many homes because some men have fallen short of what is reguired of them in their leadership role in the family .
    So in conclussion I think men and women both have some pretty important jobs .
    Thanks for the replys
    Eric Null

    :D
     
  19. MarciontheModerateBaptist

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    Thomas,

    A lot of people have titles behind their names. The schools from which you received your degrees (Andersonville and SDBTS if your website is correct) are both unaccredited. You would probably have a difficult time gaining an audience with credentials from institutions that are more like indoctrination centers than higher institutions of learning.

    Daniel
     
  20. Kellisa

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    Personally I could care less about what is behind a persons name when it comes to speaking with them about spiritual things. I am much more interested in their daily walk with Christ. I think it is nice that Thomas has been educated. I will not discredit him simply because you don't feel his teaching are adequate to today's standards and schools. Would Jesus if he were here today have enough education for you to accept his teachings? Not that I am comparing him to Jesus, it is just that it is not what is on the outside that counts, rather the inner person. I find what he has to say interesting as I do your posts sometimes.
     

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