Women Teaching Men

Perhaps Priscilla was the lead teacher. The Bible does not say. However, that is beside the point as it makes it impossible to say a woman cannot teach a man. Priscilla, whether the lead teacher or not, she did teach and she taught a man.

As usual I have no idea what you mean by authority, especially as a Baptist and in the several years I have been on the board I have yet to have anyone explain it in a way that seems thought out and rational. [very gently said]

It is what the Bible says and I believe it.

 

Cold print on the cool screen does not carry meaning well. I did not feel you were condemning me. But when I was young I was much more bigoted, in a number of way, than I am now. Youth is so wasted on the young ... and that is not putting youth down. It is just that with experience, reading, listening and thinking I have changed. Anyone who has not changed since their youth is a sad case IMHO.

For instance I was pretty neutral on Calvinism. But the Calvinist on this BB have moved me to be very anti-Calvinism ... at least as they explain it and I am convinced they do not see the way they have boxed God into a malicious, vengeful, unloving God.

There was a time that I would have been against women preachers. I am wiser now having seen quite a number of Baptist women preachers and have come to realize that God is not limited by gender by what he can do with a person.

I do believe that many men preachers say they are against women preachers, not because of theology, but because they fear the woman is a better preacher. My experience has been that the best preaching I have heard the last 20 years has been by women. This is not to say that I have not heard good preaching by men. I have. But all together it has been women who, to me, have had the keener insights.

As I have said before, I will accept truth and wisdom where I find it regardless of who teaches me.

 

From what I can tell, the issue is not a woman teaching a man. My wife teaches me new things all the time. However, it is the woman having authority over the man.

You can make a case that the Mary did indeed "teach" the disciples that Jesus had arisen, but no where was she put in authority over them.

Priscilla may or may not have been active in teaching Apollos, but that is moot. She didn't have authority over him.

Many times I have been humbled by wize old women reminding me of some teaching in the scripture I had forgotten about, or showing me that what I was doing did not line up with scripture. But in no way were they exercising authority over me.

I know that you aren't supposed to build an entire stance on a topic around one verse. But what is allowed is precluding someone from something based upon one of many requirements. "Husband of one wife" is pretty clear.

If I said you have to be 5 things in order to enter this building, and you were only 4, I would stop you from entering. If God says you have to be a few things in order to have authority in the church, and you meet all the requirements save one, I shouldn't let you have authority in the church.

 

Sapper, what do you mean by authority?

 

By "Authority", I mean that the woman should not be leading a man spiritually. A woman should not be the decision maker.

Interestingly enough, I think the US Army has got the perfect picture of how the home should be ran. Let's look at the Platoon (although a company/battalion/brigade/etc would work too):

You have the Platoon Leader, an officer: Just like the Husband
You have the Platoon Sergeant, an NCO: Just like the Wife
You have the soldier: ie, kids

In the military, the Platoon Leader does not actively engage in the instruction of the soldiers. He is in the office, making sure the Platoon is provided for, or has everything they need to train, fight, etc. (Husband at work, providing for the family's needs.)

The Platoon Sergeant (along with his junior NCOs) is actively involved with the training of the soldiers. He doesn't have to worry about getting the Platoon what they need if the Platoon has a good PL. His focus is accomplishing the directives of the PL, and training the soldiers. (Wife, focusing on raising the children and tending to matters at home.)

In the military, both the PSG and the PL have authority over the soldiers. When it comes time to make a decision, the PL will ask for the PSG's input. However, the PL is the one who ultimately has to stand and answer for the platoon, so the final decision rests on his shoulders.

In the home, the final decision rests on the man. The man is judged (by God) with how he ran his household, and the decisions made. The woman is judged not on how the household was ran, but how she reacted to the man's decisions, and whether or not she supported him. As a man, I'd be foolish to let someone make decisions in my place that I will be held accountable for later.

The local church is the same way. The church has been given by God into the care of a pastor. The pastor has to answer for how he lead the church, the members have to answer for how they followed the pastor.

With this in mind, it only logically follows that if a man is answering for how he ran his house, and the woman is answering for how she followed her husband, then how can the same man be held accountable for how he followed his wife (as a pastor) and she be held accountable for how she led him (in the church)?

 

Excellent. Impossible to find any bigotry in there.

 

Regarding the Anne Graham Lotze issue...

Completely false.

She was using her God given gift for the edificaton of those men and women who attended, as God directed her to do.

 

:thumbs:

yes...I was just about to post this to Jerome;

Jerome....you evidently missed this... we did not..

 

And I meant them both. When I said that a woman shouldn't have authority over a man, I meant that both a) she shouldn't be leading him spiritually, and b) she shouldn't be the decision maker.

As I stated, a man is the one held responsible by God in both of those instances. It would be foolish for a man to let anyone else control what he is going to be held accountable for.

 

So in the military you do not believe a woman should be an officer? Or you do not believe she should have any authority over women?

However my real question was, what authority do you see your pastor having over you?

 

The point is she taught a man. The Bible does not say if they were co-teachers or if one was the lead teacher. But she taught a man.

 

The soldier is absolutely correct! He cannot do a thing about what the government and society enforce. However, it does not take too much common sense to figure out secular governments and society do not recognize God's Word as final authority. I don't recall him saying anything about women ruling over women or women ruling over children, so why try to insert that straw man argument?

 

I never addressed what a man should or should not do in such a position. I only addressed the fact that secular government and culture does not abide by the same authority given to Christians. I said he was correct in regard to his stated position and he is!

The example given by Paul is Christ and the church! The man represents the position of Christ in this example and his wife represents the position of the church in this example. Now simply apply this example and whatever you can justify the church doing or saying in regard to RULING over Christ then you can justify the wife doing or saying in regard to RULING over the husband.

I think it is pretty silly to suggest that outside the four walls of a church building the woman is to be in submission to her husband but when she enters into those four walls it can be reversed so that the husband submits to her as his Pastor or spiritual leader. That is not to say men cannot learn even from little children but God does not give the role of spiritual leadership to little children over adults or to women over men.

When men do not take that responsibility God can and does use women to the shame of the men.

Isa. 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. As an egalitarian, I believe, as do many of the best evangelical scholars, that the Christian ideal is equality in the Church and equality in the home.

 

I believe you are correct. Have you noticed that those who say women must be submissive and quote the verse on that never include the last half of the quote which shows, if anything, the man's submission has to be greater than the woman's. The man must set aside his desires and wants for the good of the wife and family.

This verse gives no room for dictatorship, but submission to and for the good of the family.

 

Absolutely. The only way anyone can deny that is to flagrantly disregard Gods scriptures.....


Redemption

6. The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ came to redeem women as well
as men. Through faith in Christ we all become children of God, one in
Christ, and heirs to the blessings of salvation without reference to
racial, social, or gender distinctives (John 1:12-13; Rom 8:14-17;
2 Cor 5:17; Gal 3:26-28).

Community

7. The Bible teaches that at Pentecost the Holy Spirit came on men and
women alike. Without distinction, the Holy Spirit indwells women and
men, and sovereignly distributes gifts without preference as to gender
(Acts 2:1-21; 1 Cor 12:7, 11, 14:31).

8. The Bible teaches that both women and men are called to develop
their spiritual gifts and to use them as stewards of the grace of God (1
Peter 4:10-11). Both men and women are divinely gifted and
empowered to minister to the whole Body of Christ, under His
authority (Acts 1:14, 18:26, 21:9; Rom 16:1-7, 12-13, 15; Phil 4:2-3;
Col 4:15; see also Mark 15:40-41, 16:1-7; Luke 8:1-3; John 20:17-18;
compare also Old Testament examples: Judges 4:4-14, 5:7;
2 Chron 34:22-28; Prov 31:30-31; Micah 6:4).

9. The Bible teaches that, in the New Testament economy, women as
well as men exercise the prophetic, priestly and royal functions (Acts
2:17-18, 21:9; 1 Cor 11:5; 1 Peter 2:9-10; Rev 1:6, 5:10). Therefore,
the few isolated texts that appear to restrict the full redemptive freedom
of women must not be interpreted simplistically and in contradiction to
the rest of Scripture, but their interpretation must take into account their
relation to the broader teaching of Scripture and their total context
(1 Cor 11:2-16, 14:33-36; 1 Tim 2:9-15).

10. The Bible defines the function of leadership as the empowerment of
others for service rather than as the exercise of power over them (Matt
20:25-28, 23:8; Mark 10:42-45; John 13:13-17; Gal 5:13;
1 Peter 5:2-3).

Family

11. The Bible teaches that husbands and wives are heirs together of the
grace of life and that they are bound together in a relationship of mutual
submission and responsibility (1 Cor 7:3-5; Eph 5:21; 1 Peter 3:1-7;
Gen 21:12). The husband’s function as “head” (kephale) is to be
understood as self-giving love and service within this relationship of
mutual submission (Eph 5:21-33; Col 3:19; 1 Peter 3:7).

12. The Bible teaches that both mothers and fathers are to exercise
leadership in the nurture, training, discipline and teaching of their
children (Ex 20:12; Lev 19:3; Deut 6:6-9, 21:18-21, 27:16;
Prov 1:8, 6:20; Eph 6:1-4; Col 3:20; 2 Tim 1:5; see also Luke 2:51).