Works show Salvation. . .

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Phillip, Nov 19, 2004.

  1. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    A certain person has been quoted as judging whether or not Billy Graham and President Bush are not saved.

    The Bible does indicate that we know Christians by their fruits.

    How are we to judge those fruits when some of the fruits we may not even know about? Does this mean a Christian cannot produce some bad fruit if they sin? Otherwise, nobody would be a Christian because all Christians still sin.

    Someone said Billy Graham has bad fruit. If he preaches and those people accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, regardless of what church they go to, they are Christians. Christianity is NOT a slow process. Either we accept or we do not.

    Is this not the requirement for salvation?

    Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (KJV)

    I'm just throwing this out for discussion.

    I also ask another question. Doesn't this also, in a round about way, make salvation based on works since works is based on salvation? Chicken egg problem. . . at least the way it is being applied here.

    Must a Christian continue to "grow" and "move forward" as has been implied, or can he/she backslide; or is this impossible if they are a Christian?
     
  2. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    78
    I do beleive from James 2 that works are an evidence of salvation. If there was genuine salvation there will be genuine works.

    No works - no salvation.

    That still does not give me the right to inspect works and determine salvation.
     
  3. annie

    annie
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2004
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    0
    We should not be judging others their salvation.

    Having said that we should be able to see the fruits of the Spirit in fellow Christians:

     
  4. AVL1984

    AVL1984
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    6,932
    Likes Received:
    3
    One can indeed backslide, just as the nation of Israel slid back from the Lord. I still believe though that there will be some kind of showing of a true salvation experience by their works. If they are backslidden, I would expect to see some sign of chastening from the Lord, as a father would discipline his children.

    Oh, and there are no magic verses that give us the right to state whether one is saved or not, contrary to the opinion :eek: of the one who said the President and Billy Graham were not saved and were wolves in sheeps clothing. :rolleyes:
     
  5. Phillip

    Phillip
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2001
    Messages:
    6,708
    Likes Received:
    0
    AVL1984, I agree with the chastening. I believe that we are on the same page, but in case someone brings it up: I should mention that we are not to judge whether hardships (sickness, money problems, kids on drugs, etc.) are chastening either. I think you would agree with me on this, right?
     
  6. AVL1984

    AVL1984
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    6,932
    Likes Received:
    3
    Yes, I do agree, Phillip. Not all of these things are chastening of the Lord. Being disabled as I am, I have had several preachers tell me it is God's judgement....LOL...What Pharisees
     
  7. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,398
    Likes Received:
    0
    You guys have brought up a great point of what is the source of bad things happening in our lives. Might I offer a few.

    1. We live in a fallen world. "it rains on the just and the unjust"

    2. We willfully choose to make bad decisions and we reap the results of those decisions. Many of our problems are simply the results of bad choices.

    3. Satan. He hates us and will attack.

    4. God's disciple. Always out of love because He is our Father who wants whats best for us.

    What think ye? Have I forgotten any.

    Bro Tony
     
  8. AVL1984

    AVL1984
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    6,932
    Likes Received:
    3
    Correct, Bro Tony. I was amazed when this IFB preacher was standing there yelling and hollering Bible verses at me telling me it was God's judgement on me for not being active in the ministry. The funny thing is that I had the disease that disables me since I was between 8 and 12 years old. When I told him this, he shut his mouth and walked off.
     
  9. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,398
    Likes Received:
    0
    Seems like others on this board may have been his disciple at one time.

    Bro Tony

    BTW I am glad you are doing better from your recent illness, I don't know what it was by Dr Bob had us pray for you.

    OOPS--In my last post I meant God's discipline not God's disciple.
     
  10. AVL1984

    AVL1984
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    6,932
    Likes Received:
    3
    Oh, I nearly died from blood loss when I was in the hospital. I was given six units of blood (they wanted to give me two more, but I said no) and then had several tests done trying to find the source of the loss. They still haven't found it, and I may require more transfusions soon. Thank you for the prayers.

    Sorry this was off subject, ya'll.
     
  11. Bro Tony

    Bro Tony
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,398
    Likes Received:
    0
    You got it brother. And it is never off the subject to lift up a brother. You have my prayers and those of my church.

    Bro Tony
     
  12. donnA

    donnA
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2000
    Messages:
    23,354
    Likes Received:
    0
    Do you eve expereince spiritual growth due to bad things happening in your life?
     
  13. AVL1984

    AVL1984
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    6,932
    Likes Received:
    3
    I know I do. I look at almost everything as a learning experience and for what God is trying to teach me through it. Sometimes it is right there before my eyes. At other times, it takes a while.
     
  14. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    I see people whose works are bad. Later they say they were backslidden but have been and still are saved.

    If I had god-like ability to judge beyond the works, I would have known that.

    But God said, " . . for God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

    Michelle has made judgment based on outward appearance, and cannot see the heart. I trust no one else here would be so presumptuous.
     
  15. michelle

    michelle
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    3,217
    Likes Received:
    0
    How is it that one condones another religion, and not give them the truth showing forth the fruit of a saved person? How is it one who is saved could ever tell another person, or religion that they too believe in the same God? Are you saying that I should tell the muslim that thier God is also the same God? What saith the scriptures? How is being a member of Skull and Bones, and not repenting of it publicly when asked, and then saying there is nothing wrong with it a fruit of a saved person? How is it that one participates in the Bohemian Grove a fruit of a saved person? How is it that one who is sending souls to the Roman Catholic Church for their discipleship and growing the fruit of a saved person? How is this judging based upon only appearance? Scriptures tell us NOT to do these things, and a saved person would not be able to do these things, or participate in these things, or say these things if they have the Holy Spirit of God dwelling in them. You are not judging this based upon scriptural truth, but your own opinion.


    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  16. AVL1984

    AVL1984
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2002
    Messages:
    6,932
    Likes Received:
    3
    Michelle says:

    "a saved person would not be able to do these things, or participate in these things, or say these things if they have the Holy Spirit of God dwelling in them."

    AVL1984:

    Michelle, this is not fact. This is your own PRIVATE twisted interpretation of scripture. Christians are not perfect beings. You almost seem like you're trying to make them out to be such just because they are saved. IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN...at least not in the earthly body. Just because one gets saved does not GUARANTEE that they are going to follow the Lord 100%. Do you? Of course you don't. Neither do I or anyone else here. We strive to, but we cannot in and of ourselves.
    Now, many Christians are members of organizations that they shouldn't be members of, do things they should not do. This doesn't make them "unsaved" or negate their salvation. Just because the Holy Spirit is dwelling in them doesn't mean that they can't sin and grieve the Holy Spirit. The Bible talks about Christians grieving the Holy Spirit, giving warning to them. YOU are not judging righteous judgement but rather by your own biased twisted interpretation of scripture. YOU have no right to judge ANY PERSONS salvation except your own.
     
  17. michelle

    michelle
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    3,217
    Likes Received:
    0
    --------------------------------------------------
    Michelle, this is not fact. This is your own PRIVATE twisted interpretation of scripture. Christians are not perfect beings. You almost seem like you're trying to make them out to be such just because they are saved.
    --------------------------------------------------


    By the way you believe, all people then are saved. Anyone who just says it, you believe it. This is very dangerous and God tells us the opposite of this. Jesus said, let no man decieve you BY ANY MEANS. For there shall arise false christs and false prophets. Read prophesy sometime.


    love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  18. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    1 Cor. 12:3, "Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit."

    It is more than just saying. The context in scripture was that by naming Christ as your Lord in the NT times one could lose their life because the emperor was lord. By claiming Jesus as Lord meant that one was renouncing the emperor as their lord and namimng Jesus as their Lord. For doing this the emperor could have had them executed.
     
  19. michelle

    michelle
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    3,217
    Likes Received:
    0
    How exactly has this changed? Many today still are persecuted, jailed and killed for claiming and believing Jesus is Lord. However, and I am sorry, but I fail to see your point to the quote of mine that you responded to. What is your point?


    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
  20. gb93433

    gb93433
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2003
    Messages:
    15,496
    Likes Received:
    6
    My point is that what you wrote earlier is not in line with what scripture teaches. The Bible teaches that one cannot name Christ as Lord except by the Holy Spirit. What you wrote is a twist on that of just saying you believe does not mean it is so. If today we were living within the same context of the NT it would be so.
     

Share This Page

Loading...