Would Jesus have sinned without the holy spirit?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, Aug 31, 2006.

  1. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    Another question which keeps me busy. I listened to a sermon about Benny Hinn today. The pastor talked about his heresies. He said that Benny Hinn said that without the holy spirit Jesus would have sinned, he wouldn't have had any chance. What do you think about this?
    I mean Jesus had the holy spirit in him. Actually it's totally hypothetical to think about what would have happened if Jesus had not had the holy spirit. Isn't this silly? This is like asking: What happens if The Father and the Holy Spirit argue and they separate themselves?

    What do you think about this? And do you think that Jesus needed an extra anointing which he got after being baptized for his service? Did Jesus need to be anointed to do all those miracles or why did this happen after he was baptized?

    The preacher also said Jesus was incapable of sinning, do you agree with this? But if he was incapable of sinning why should Satan even have tempted him if Satan knew that Jesus cannot even sin?
    I'm not sure if Jesus was incapable of sinning, what do you think? Somehow this is really annoying. I mean all these detailed questions "Was Jesus able to sin?", "Would Jesus have sinned without the Holy Spirit?" it's so annoying because I don't know all the answers to those questions but they seem to be a big deal since christians argue about them and I also don't want to learn anything wrong. Should a christian be able to answer all these questions from the bible or is it possible that the bible is simply silent about some things?
     
    #1 xdisciplex, Aug 31, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 31, 2006
  2. Scarlett O.

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    I think that anyone who believes this doesn't understand the relationship between God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit that is taught in the bible.

    Jesus did not need an annointing of any kind to be able to do anything.

    Jesus created the universe. (See John 1:1-3)

    Why was He baptized? Many people have debated that. Perhaps He was bearing witness to His commitment to the Father. Perhaps he was identifying Himself with humanity. Perhaps He was showing humanity what to do. Perhaps He was giving testimony to His upcoming death, burial and resurrection.

    But He was definitely not in need of any annointing.


    No, a christian will never have all of the "answers" to every question....even if they have the bible memorized. The bible's intent is not to make us spiritual genuises.

    Yes, the bible is silent on some issues and hard to understand on others. That's where faith, trust, and obedience on our part comes in.

    A christian should certainly seek out any of life's mysteries from the bible. And a christian should read the bible daily to apply it to his/her daily questions and routine.

    Did Jesus have the capability of sinning while He was human?

    Here is all that I know.

    The bible says that Jesus is the spotless Lamb of God. That means He never sinned.....not even once. Not in thought nor deed nor heart nor hand. Never.

    I think that one could drive him or herself crazy debating whether or not Jesus had the capacity to sin while he was human.

    It just doesn't matter.

    If He did have the capacity (while human), he was also still the Son of God while human at the same time, so therefore he could not have sinned.

     
  3. av1611jim

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    Jesus as a man COULD have sinned, else these passages have no meaning;
    Heb 4:15
    For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
    Heb 5:7
    Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
    Heb 5:8
    Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
    Heb 5:9
    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    Jesus, the Lord God, could NOT have sinned, else these passages have no meaning.
    Joh 1:1
    ΒΆ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:2
    The same was in the beginning with God.
    Joh 1:3
    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    Mr 4:39
    And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.
    Mt 14:25
    And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.
    Mt 14:26
    And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.
    Mt 14:27
    But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
    Mt 14:28
    And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
    Mt 14:29
    And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
    Mt 14:30
    But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
    Mt 14:31
    And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
    Mt 14:32
    And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.

    And many other such like things I could post but the point is that we cannot understand the God-Man Christ Jesus. Like us, he could have sinned but, unlike us, He didn't. Like God, He could not even be tempted with evil. And that is the whole of it.

    I hope this is sufficient for your query. Whole volumes have been written about this question. I'll not repeat such a labor as that on this limited forum.
     
  4. BobRyan

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    While it is true that Jesus is "The CREATOR GOD" one with the Father from all eternity - the second person of the triune Godhead.

    It is also true that coming to earth HE EMPTIED Himself so that HE said "I can of my own self do NOTHING".

    He even stated that He was not speaking HIS OWN WORD but only the Word of the Father.

    The Work He did - He did using the same Godly agency available to us -- but at the same time He was STILL GOD in human form - having the authority and position of "God the Son". Should He command it - 12 legions of Angels would come and do His bidding -- as He said to Peter.

    He could at any time - TAKE UP the power and wisdom that he willingly set aside. Satan knew this and that is why he tempted Christ to do that very thing in turning a stone into bread.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. TaterTot

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    A preacher who doesnt take his text from the Bible has no business staniding before a flock. Preaching "about" Benny Hinn - whats the point? Jesus didnt need an extra anoining - He IS the anointing.
     
  6. Helen

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    xdisciplex, quit paying attention to Hinn and others like him. They preach heresies, are after money, and are known to be false preachers. There are plenty of good ministers out there so that you don't have to resort to these quacks.
     
  7. xdisciplex

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    I don't listen to Hinn. I listened to a sermon about Hinn. And the problem is that the pastor quoted Hinn and a few of Hinn's quotes which the pastor said are totally wrong didn't seem so wrong to me and this confused me.
    For example I don't know if Jesus could have sinned or not. If he couldn't have sinned even if he had wanted to where was the sense of Satan testing him? Why should Satan even have done it? But this pastor said that Jesus could impossibly have sinned and he made it look like Hinn saying that Jesus could have sinned is one of the greatest blasphemies and since I also am not sure wether he could have sinned or not I asked myself why this pastor is so sure that Jesus wasn't capable of sinning.
    He said that Jesus is God and God can't sin. And he said Jesus also had no sin nature. But Adam also had no sin nature and he sinned. :confused:
     
  8. Marcia

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    This is the last time I'm asking this:
    Instead of trying to solve theological riddles that keep theologians and others debating, why don't you spend time reading and learning God's word.
     
  9. xdisciplex

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    Learning is all about being able to answer questions.
    You cannot learn without being able to answer more questions than before.
    You tell me to stop trying to find answers and at the same time I shall start reading and learning the bible? This sounds paradoxical to me.
     
  10. Marcia

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    You won't get the answers without studying and reading God's word! And some of these questions have no clear answers.

    It's not an overnight thing. It's a matter of putting time every day for years into reading and studying God's word. As time goes by, you learn more and more. You don't have to have answers to everything at once!
     
  11. Su Wei

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    Reading this, i thought about these verses.:smilewinkgrin:

    Ecclesiastes 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

    2 Timothy 3:1-7 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    but we are to do this:

    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    As for my answer to the OP, Jesus was born without sin because He was born of a virgin. He had not the sin nature because the seed was not of a sinful man. We are born with sin.

    And as av1611jim said, Jesus had the potential to commit sin because the bible says He was tempted like we are but He set the precedence for us that even though he was flesh and blood like us, He resisted temptation.

    Praise God!
     
  12. Brandon C. Jones

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    Disciple-

    I recommend doing some reading on the subject as this question delves into one of my favorite realms of Christology-The Incarnation.

    You will see that if you study this issue there is a rich dialoque in Church History and in recent times over this question and its proper answer and implications.

    Personally, I believe in the traditional answer that Jesus could not have sinned regardless of the Spirit because Jesus is divine in His own right as God the Son (or second person of the trinity if you like) incarnate. Answering the temptation question is more difficult, but the simplest answer is that Jesus willingly chose not to sin while here on earth-the author of Hebrews even talks of His learning obedience despite being Son. The fact that Jesus could not have sinned does not take anything away from His actions here on earth-including His temptation. However, people ask fair questions about all this and it forces some fair answers-good and bad.

    Those who hold to a sort of wisdom christology or the like would say that Jesus could have sinned without the Spirit because if one speaks of Christ's divinity then she is speaking of God's Spirit in Christ in a special way.

    Proponents of wisdom christology extend beyond Hinn and co. and you can even find scholarly works that tout it from James D. G. Dunn and Ben Witherington III to name a couple (I am not lumping their views together because they are surely distinct).

    The best work that addresses this is Packer and Soderlund, eds. "The Way of Wisdom," which is a festschrift for Bruce Waltke. The essays by Jobes, Enns, and especially Fee are helpful in this work in addressing the claims of Wisdom Christology.

    Another (orthodox in my opinion) route to explain this is that of kenotic Christology. Too often people dismiss this view thinking of its 19th-century heretical version (Christ gave up divine attributes while on earth), but it has been refined to meet all orthodox standards as far as I can tell-no more giving up of divine attributes. Oxford printed a great book full of essays on the subject called "Exploring Kenotic Christology" and it is edited by Steve Evans. I personally don't agree with this view but am sympathetic to some of its more recent proponents.

    Lastly, if you want just one book on the Incarnation this would be my recommendation and it thankfully came out in a cheaper paperback version. It is another Oxford title called "The Incarnation" and is edited by Stephen Davis, Daniel Kendall, and Gerald O'Collins. Tom Wright, Sarah Coakley, Stephen Davis, Gordon Fee, and others all write some good essays on various aspects of the incarnation. There's even an essay on kenotic Christology if you can't afford the more expensive book above.

    For an interesting attempt at explaining the traditional view of two natures and two wills by proposing two minds see Thomas V. Morris's "The Logic of God Incarnate." There is some modal logic stuff in it, but not too much if that's not your cup of tea.

    You can quickly see that the orthodox view of Christ as witnessed in Scripture leaves three non-negotiable things in tension: Christ is fully divine, fully human, and one person. It seems that there is no perfect view in relating these three things together and that becomes apparent when addressing specific questions like how He was truly tempted or said that He didn't know the day or hour of His own return. There's even more trouble when one considers the problems fleshing out fully divine (perfect being theology, essentialism, etc.) and even fully human (dualism, monism, etc.).

    In the end it is mysterious and beyond us that God could and did become a man. We'll never totally figure out how exactly that works. We are tempted to go the negative route and just try to say what it is not or the Eastern route and say that we know the boundaries and can't really fill in the details within them.

    However, that's no excuse to be lazy and miss out on a way to meditate on our wonderful Saviour and just how great of an example He left for us to follow. I believe there is much fruit to studies like these and it helps us grow to the full stature of Christ because it helps us look to and praise Him-the pioneer and perfecter of our faith.
     
    #12 Brandon C. Jones, Sep 13, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 13, 2006
  13. Link

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    >>The pastor talked about his heresies. He said that Benny Hinn said that without the holy spirit Jesus would have sinned, he wouldn't have had any chance. What do you think about this?
    I mean Jesus had the holy spirit in him. Actually it's totally hypothetical to think about what would have happened if Jesus had not had the holy spirit. Isn't this silly? This is like asking: What happens if The Father and the Holy Spirit argue and they separate themselves?<<


    This reminds me of the quote I have heard attributed to Augustine and author Luther, that someone asked him what God was doing for all eternity before he created the heavens and the earth. The teacher's answer was "He was creating Hell for those who would ask such questions." Not a theologically correct answer, but clever.

    Some questions don't deserve to be asked. Why bother speculating on such foolishness. Why would God have not given the Word the Spirit? It doesn't make sense. And how could the Word of God have sinned? There was no way Christ could have sinned since He was the Lamb lain from the foundation of the world.
     

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