Would you agree with this statement?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by IfbReformer, Jul 28, 2003.

  1. IfbReformer

    IfbReformer
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    Here it is:

    "The Bible is the story of the "Sons of God" - the people of God (the redeemed of all ages) - that is what the Church is. At a certain point in time, God chose to show his glory and work through the seed of one man - Abraham. His children would become a nation and represent God on earth. So from the time of Abraham to the time of Christ most of the elect (redeemed, household of God) were physical Jews. Although there were some exceptions of Gentiles being brought in like Rahab and Ruth.

    After Christ, the Gentiles (non-physical Jews) were brought to belief by God in mass numbers. Now a shift took place in the household of God, it was restructured. Physical Jews had made up the majority of the household of God for many centuries, but now non-physical Jews (gentiles) would make up the majority and only a "remnant" of Jews would be saved during this period.

    Does this mean that the physical Jewish people have no special place with God? Absolutely Not! They still are special to God and he will bring an entire generation of physical Jews to himself in the latter days. Another way to say this is that amongst God's spiritual people(Jews and Gentiles) there is not distinction, and no separate plan. But amongst the physical peoples of the earth (physical Jews and Gentiles) God has and does deal with them differently.

    I realize at this point that this is confusing, but you must separate the physical from the spiritual. No one can deny that God has blessed the physical Jewish people and watched over them providentially throughout the centuries. I do believe the scriptures are clear that God will bring to himself an entire generation of physical Jews in the last days.

    But, the fact that God will bring an entire generation of physical Jews back to himself does not justify the notion that God has two separate spiritual peoples with two separate plans. We will rule and reign together, believing Jews and Gentiles together in the millennial reign of Christ. We have a common spiritual destiny - we are one spiritual body."

    The entire article is at http://www.ifbreformation.org/Prophecy_Israel_Church.html

    I look forward to your responses.

    Thanks

    IFBReformer
     
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    Historic dispensationalist make such a clear distinction. I've never had any problem with it.

    Keep physical Israel and physical church separate and it is amazing how it clears up so many gray areas in the Bible. :eek:
     
  3. IfbReformer

    IfbReformer
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    Dr. Bob,

    You and I would agree that God still loves the physical Jews and will bring an entire generation
    of Jews back to himself in the last days.

    But think you may have missed my point - that while God deals with physical jews differently(providentally blessing and watching over physical jews - even those who are not saved)
    than physical gentiles he does not deal with spiritual Jews and Gentiles differently. We are one body in Christ.

    I guess the way I could get your take on this is by how you view these quotes. Who would you agree with more, Charles Spurgeon or J. Dwight Pentecost:

    So Dr. Bob do you agree with Dwight Pentecost that "Prior to Pentecost there were saved individuals, but there was
    no church, and they were a part of spiritual Israel, not the church."
    or do you agree with Charles Spurgeon that all believers are a part of the Church of God?

    I look forward to your response.

    Thanks

    IFBReformer
     
  4. Dr. Bob

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    J. Dwight Pentecost would probably be closer to my position in that area. Separation of Israel and the Church (esp in the OT prior to the birth of the church) is mandatory.

    Otherwise you get that "every promise in the book is mine" mentality and we begin to see folks today naming and claiming promises to Israel as if they were for US! Crazy!
     
  5. lighthouse

    lighthouse
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    IfbReformer,
    You must keep the church and the nation of Israel separate. The church, which is the body of Christ, the Bride, is for whosoever may come. Israel is not the bride.
    Remember what John said, "the friend of the bridegroom".
    (Jn.3:29). John is not the the groom nor is he the bride. John who represents Israel(Mt.11:13) is the friend of the groom. Israel is not part of the wedding, but the guest at the wedding feast(Lu.12:36,37). The wedding is in heaven(rapture), the feast is on earth(2nd coming), setting up a 1000 year kingdom. The church and Israel have different promises. The blessings of the church are spiritual, heavenly blessings, while Israel has an earthly Inheritance.
     
  6. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    Please explain to us, -

    "But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise BY FAITH of Jesus Christ might be given to them(both Jew and Gentiles) that(of what??)BELIEVE...For ye are ALL the children of God by(what???)FAITH in (on what??)Christ Jesus.....There is neither Jew NOR Greek, there is neither bond NOR free, there is neither male NOR female: for YE ARE ALL ONE in Christ Jesus. And if YE be Christ's THEN are YE Abrham's seed, and heirs according to the PROMISE." - Gal. 3:22, 27, 28-29

    What these are talking about?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  7. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    lighthouse,

    WHO are the Bride of New Jerusalem - Rev. 21:9???
     
  8. lighthouse

    lighthouse
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    DeafPostTrib,

    You are right quoting the verse, "all are the children of God BY FAITH". Salvation has always been, from the beginning(Gen.1:1) BELIEF OF THE TRUTH(2Thess.2:13).
    However, Old Testament Saints believed in the blood of the lamb, while the church believes in the blood of Jesus(the Lamb of God). The Old Testament believers were forgiven, but not redeemed. They could not go to heaven until the blood of Jesus was applied(Heb.9:15, Ro.3:25). For the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sin(Heb.10:1-4). The Old Testament Saints were declared righteous, when they did righteous, while the church is made righteous by Jesus Christ(Rom.3:30).

    As far as Rev.21:9 goes, the New Jerusalem is the city prepared by God for all His Saints. This is where our mansions will be. Most likely the nation of Israel will be in the inner court, while the Gentiles will be in the outer court because the tabernacle was built "according to the pattern"(Heb.8:5) of the tabernacle of heaven. But that part is my oppinion. I do know that all the children of God will dwell together for all eternity. Praise God!
     
  9. IfbReformer

    IfbReformer
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    Dr. Bob,

    You have seen many of my posts and I never get personal or call someone elses position 'crazy'.

    But it is amazing to me that when it comes to this issue of the relationship of Israel to the Church and whether God has one sprirtual people or two, the gloves seem to come off - even for Charles Spurgeon whom I greatly admire.

    You call the Historic Premillenial position of ascribing promises to Israel(really Spiritual Israel because thats who they were made too) to the New Testament Church 'crazy'.

    Charles Spurgeon speaking of Dispensationalist beliefs said "...perhaps it is a mercy that these absurdities are revealed at one time, in order that we may be able to endure their stupidity without dying of amazement."

    So I guess you can call our beliefs 'crazy' if we can call yours 'absurd' and 'stupid'.

    All the promises of the Old Testament, whether they were made to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses or David were and are made to the people of God.

    "every child of God in every place stands on the same footing; the Lord has not some children best beloved, some second-rate offspring, and others whom he hardly cares about."
    -Charles Spurgeon

    Whether you think this is 'crazy' or not its Biblical.

    Ephesians 2:12 & 19-20(NIV)
    "remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world...19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone."

    According the Bible, We(unbelieving gentiles) were "excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise"
    and now we are "no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household".

    Dr Bob,

    I was excluded from the citizenship of Israel(true spiritual Israel) and I was a foreigner to
    "the covenants of the promise". But no longer.
    I am a fellow citizen with spiritual Israel.

    We are built upon the foundation of the the "apostles and prophets" - those prophets include Moses and all the other major and minor prophets. There promises were to true Israel(spritual Israel) of whom I am a "fellow citizen ".

    I am curious Dr. Bob,

    How do you interpret Ephesians chapter 2?
    When will Christ rebuild the barrier between Jews and Gentiles that he "destroyed"?

    IFBReformer
     
  10. Dr. Bob

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    Sorry you took the "crazy" so personally! It was meant to speak to the group that now teaches "every promise in the book is mine" bunch!

    We've been fussing with that bunch elsewhere. Know that you are not that extreme!

    Again, sorry for the inadvertant "Crazy". I yell at others for using such words!! :eek:
     
  11. IfbReformer

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    Why? The Bible tells me not to seperate them.

    Ephesians 2:14-15(NIV)
    "14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations."

    According to the Bible, Christ "destroyed the barrier" between the Jew and Gentile. No longer would the majority of God's elect be called from the physical Jewish people(although in the last days he call an entire generation of physical Jews back to himself). When does the Bible say that Christ will "rebuild the barrier" between spiritual Jews and Gentiles?

    Speaking of making the two one, what does God say about seperating what God has joined together?

    Mark 10:9(NIV)
    "Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

    Where in the entire Bible does it say the Church(only saved Jews and Gentiles of this age) as you define it is the Bride of Christ?

    In the passage in John 3, John the Baptist was simply saying he was not the Christ. Where do you get this stuff that "John..represents Israel". Where does it say that Israel(believing Jews - whether Old Testament or New) are not a part of the wedding? Dispensationalists and especially Baptist Briders read way to much into the Bride. Actually if anyone is honest about this they will admit that the Bride is a somewhat abstract symbol in scripture. The New Jerusalem is called his Bride. It is mentioned in various accounts but please give me one that says the Church as you define it is the Bride.


    Where in the Bible does it say the wedding is in heaven? I agree the feast in on earth.

    Please give me a promise that is made to Israel(spiritual true Israel because thats who the promises were made to) that does not apply to all believers Jew or Gentile?

    Then give me one that applies only to the Church and not to Israel.

    We will look at them together.

    And here it is, the God has a earthly people and God has a heavenly people theory. In once sense I agree with you and in the other I do not. God does deal with physical unbelieving Jews differently than non-physical(gentile) unbelivers. God blesses physical Jews and look at how prosperous they are. Yet on a spiritual level a Christian Jew and I stand together on the same plane now and forever - for when will Christ rebuild the barrier he destroyed? We will rule together in the millenial Kingdom, we are one forever.

    IFBReformer
     
  12. IfbReformer

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    Thats ok Dr. Bob, I know you did not mean it personally. Don't find it interesting though that Charles Spurgeon used such strong language of Dispensationalists(absurd and stupid)?
     
  13. IfbReformer

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    Dr. Bob,

    Could you answer my previous question:

    "How do you interpret Ephesians chapter 2?
    When will Christ rebuild the barrier between Jews and Gentiles that he "destroyed"?"

    Thanks

    IFBReformer
     

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