"You will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes"

Lastday

Amplification of my Last Post:

With little time available before Bible Study this Sunday AM, I spent only fifteen
minutes in my response to Winman. The Father has only revealed to the Son the Day and Hour of His "coming and Presence" in GLORY. But He has also revealed His coming in POWER (erchomai; but not Parousia) for 1260 days will "Precede" His coming in Personal Presence in POWER AND GLORY. So only the 1260 days constitute His coming in "Power". [Both words are used of His Coming in Personal Power and Glory; but only "erchomai" is used of His coming in POWER].

This distinction is necessary to remove the possibility that Jesus was "mistaken" regarding the "rumor" that John might live until Jesus comes! At the same time, it reveals He knew that His coming in POWER could require that
John might not die until he joins Elijah as one of Two Witnesses of "all the
things that happens until the last one is killed who must be killed"!! Surely
Jesus knew that the Hour of His Personal Presence had to wait until the
Last Martyr has been killed before God avenges their blood!!!
Mel

 

With all respect, I am not really sure I understand what you are saying. It is not your fault, I am simply not familiar with your view and not quite sure I understand it.

I certainly am not denying that Jesus knows everything. If John were to remain alive until he comes, Jesus would certainly know that.

What I cannot understand is why you think John will be alive when Jesus comes. Jesus did not say John would be alive, I have already shown that. And just because a false rumor spread does not mean that Jesus wanted this rumor to spread. Actually, this verse seems to be very careful to tell us that is not what Jesus said nor intended to say, so it seems to be written for the very purpose of correcting this false rumor.

John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

If anything, this verse intends to correct those who teach that John would remain alive until Jesus comes. And by doing so the implication is that John would not remain alive until Jesus comes.

This verse does not support your view, but argues against it.

 

Lastday

Winman:

Your write:

There are two reasons for your failure to "understand what I am writing":

FIRST, you assume the "rumor" was FALSE; but it was only misunderstood
by the Disciples. You cannot prove it was false. John simply corrected what
he called a "rumor", i.e., that Jesus said "John would live until Jesus comes". John corrected the rumor by reminding the reader that Jesus did not actually say "John would live until He comes". But neither John nor Jesus denied that "John might live until He comes". What He said could still actually occur!

WE MUST NOT SUGGEST THAT JESUS WAS "FLIPPANT" IN HIS TEACHING!

My response to your first assumption of a so-called "FALSE" rumor is that it would be unlike Jesus to suggest that John MIGHT live until He comes unless He KNEW John must first return from heaven so as to reveal the "sealed messages of the 7 thunders" before He comes in Person and in Glory.

Jesus, in Matt.16:27-28, had both stages of His coming in mind...first, of His coming in Glory to reward believers and second, of His precedent coming thru the 2 Witnesses to demonstrate His Power and Authority as given later to John in Rev.12. His coming in Power is described in both Rev.11:3-11 and Rev.12:10-14!!

SECOND, you have made no attempt whatsoever to counter the fact that
the "NOW of God's Kingdom Power and Christ's Authority" will occur for
1260 days, 42 months, 3.5 times BEFORE Christ defeats Satan who will
be allowed to continue to kill the Saints during that time UNTIL the last
"Martyr has been killed who must be killed". The Martyrs remain "under the
Altar in heaven" until God avenges their blood and that continues to this Day.

The Lastday cannot occur for the "raising up and gathering of the elect from earth to meet Jesus in the air" until the last Martyr has been killed! No one
can enter the Temple in Heaven until the Last Plague empties in the Air on
the Day that Christ comes to destroy the wicked and redeem Israel as they
"mourn and beg to escape all these things and to stand before the Son of
Man"!! But until you realize that Christ must first come in Kingdom Power for
1260 days and must still wait 3 more days until the "last martyr has been killed," you cannot begin to "understand what I am writing"!!!
Mel Miller

 

Jesus was not flippant at all...He was proving a point. John put an end to the rumor but the rumor seems to live on to supplement your view.

 

Lastday

Jedi Knight:

Since Jesus was serious in suggesting that John might not die, then it is wrong
to deny what He actually said as being true and therefore a real possibility... that John MIGHT (not John "WILL remain"; but "if I wish he remains until I come) live until Jesus comes in Power...a truth Jesus verified to John, I believe, more than 20 years after the destruction of Jerusalem and His so-called SC!

The rumor among the Disciples was that Jesus said "John would not die until
Jesus comes". John corrected the rumor because what Jesus said was still
a possibility over 60 years later when Jesus confirmed that "believers would
willingly die for Christ" until the End of the 1260 days...and that "some would
still taste death until the last one who must be killed has been killed". Rev.6:11; Rev.12:11.

Since Believers are still dying for Christ, He has not yet come to "avenge
their blood". The Rescue of Surviving Believers and Revenge on the wicked will occur ON THE DAY of His Apocalypse. Jesus will come with "ALL the dead in Christ...including the Two Witnesses...on the same DAY He "gathers the
Elect from earth to meet Him in the sky"!! Luke 17:30-33; Mark 13:27;
Matt.24:31; 2 Thess.1:10; I Thess.4:13-17.

Life and Death is a serious subject with Jesus. Revelation concerns the
Believers who live and die for Christ until the LAST Martyr has died. To even
suggest He did not mean what He said to Peter, that "John would live until
He comes (erchomai; not Parousia) but only IF THAT WAS GOD'S WILL" is
to also open up the question of His sincerity!

Your view is that Jesus was "trying to prove a point". He had already
revealed that "some would not taste death until AFTER they had seen and had experienced His coming in Kingdom Power for 1260 days". Rev.12:10-14.
That won't begin to occur until 1263 to 1264 days before Christ appears!!

Jesus was not "mistaken" for lack of knowledge as Winman suggests.
He was not "misleading" for lack of truthfulness as what He said is still possible.
He does not lack the power to cause all men to "see Him coming in both
Power and PERSON" (erchomai and Parousia) as Logos1 seems to doubt!!!

To me, any one suggesting that Jesus did not mean exactly what He said
is opening up the possibility that He was being "flippant" or "misleading".
Mel Miller

 

You are insisting that Jesus suggested John would be alive when he comes, but that is not what Jesus was suggesting and the scripture is very clear to point that out. This verse actually gives the strong impression that John would not be alive when Jesus comes.

I don't think Jesus flippant at all. The scriptures clearly say Jesus did not say John would remain alive until he comes. There is nothing flippant about that.

Could you show the scripture that supports your view? You say Jesus cannot come in the air until the last martyr has been killed, but the scriptures teach some Christians will remain alive when he comes.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Now, a martyr by definition is someone who has died or been killed for a cause, so in that respect you must be correct, but not all Christians will be dead when Jesus returns.

 

Lastday

Winman:

I am very sincere in asking why you made your closing statement:

You should have concluded, as revealed to John, that God does not, will not avenge the Martyrs until the last one "who must be killed has been killed"!
That automatically includes "some who taste death only after they see
Jesus coming in Kingdom Power; but before He comes in Person"!! The "NOW of His coming in Kingdom Power" continues for 1260 days. Then in 3 or 4
days, He comes in both Power and in Personal Glory!!! Rev.6:11; Rev.12:11.

Here, the 3.5 times of dying for Christ (Rev.12:11-14) is the same period of
time during which the Two Prophets demonstrate God's Kingdom Power for 1260 days or 42 months until the armies of the Evil Trio kill a third of mankind in Trump #6 and invade Israel in Plague #6. Rev.11:2-7.

Christ comes in two stages: first to demonstrate His "Authority and God's
Kingdom Power" through these Two. It is possible (not provable) that Jesus prepared John in advance to be one of these Witnesses who finish fulfilling Rev.11:3-7; Rev.12:10-14; Mark 9:1 and Matt.16:28 before Christ APPEARS in GLORY and Power and Person to fulfill Matt.16:27 at the End of the Age.

You can realize the real sequence by recognizing that Jesus referred to His coming (erchomai) in Glory (not in Power only...Matt.16:27) and in Person and then preparing a "few" of the final Martyrs to taste death prior to His coming in Person. He announced that "a few would taste death before they see Him coming in Person and Power and Glory; but after He comes in Kingdom Power only. Only Jesus uses both erchomai and Parousia for the two stages of His coming in Kingdom Power...the times (pl) to "restore all things". Only the Greek word "Parousia" is used by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and James of Christ's coming in PERSON at the End of the Age...after all believers have been killed who must be killed. Only Jesus uses the word "erchomai and Parousia" for both His "coming" in Kingdom Power and later in Personal Glory!

I suggest your failure to realize this explains why you do not understand me.
But there is the other connective truth that He cannot come in Power and
Glory until the last Martyr has been killed...for that's when "God brings the
souls of ALL the dead in Christ with Jesus FIRST" before He "gathers the
Elect together from earth to meet Him at the Synagogue in the sky". Here I Thess.4:13-17 and 2 Thess.2:1 are fulfilled after the last Martyr dies!!

During a final 3.5 days after the 2 Witnesses "finish manifesting God's Kingdom Power, a few must still taste death until the last one who must be killed has been killed".
Then Jesus appears on that third or a 4th day. The Two Witnesses are killed by the Beast before Christ is crowned and "God's wrath has come and the appointed Kairos-Time for the 3 R's": Resurrection, Rewards, Retribution!!! Rev.11:11-18.

You wrote:

You are missing the whole point! Paul teaches that "God will bring ALL the dead in Christ with Jesus" FIRST!! Then those who survive will be caught up
to meet them...and Jesus said He will raise up the DEAD on the Last Day!!!
[Perhaps millions will survive "to the END" as Jesus stated in Rev.2:25-26].
Mel Miller

 

No one is being caught up to heaven. Christ is returning to tabernacle with man. The Holy Spirit will dwell within us.

When Paul writes:1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

He is not suggesting anyone will leave the earth.

Parousia and apantesis indicate he is using language familiar to the Thessalonians that is consistent with their customs. When a King would visit a town the important people would meet him when he got close to the city and escort him back to their city as a show of respect and welcome.

Parousia – Christ comes to earth.

Apantesis – Christians go to meet him. This was the custom—go meet the visitor.

All Christ’s parables using the wedding theme confirm this interpretation. In all of them the groom comes and stays and never once does he return from where he came.

And, remember the wise virgins who went out to meet the groom. He didn’t take them and return from where he came.

Even the parables of Christ tell us to accept the 70 AD view of Christ's return and ringing in the New Covenant in its entirety.

 

Although I'm not a 'full' preterist, I suspect you and I would agree much more than not on the subject of eschatology. I find this statement of yours particularly true. Since coming to the partial preterist view the parables makes immensely more sense than before.

Just curious, how would you fit this passage into the full preterist view? This is one that is a 'sticking point' with me:

....Christ`s, at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. 1 Cor 15:23,24

 

Logos1
ONE: When you refer to I Thess.4, you should include all three pertinent points.
TWO: Then you should repeat what Paul actually wrote, not your idea of same.

You list Parousia for Christ's coming and falsely assume Paul said He comes to "earth"!
You list Apantesis for the meeting in the AIR which contradicts your false assumption!!
You omit Anastaysetai for the dead in Christ who risie again FIRSTLY at His Parousia!!!
Mel Miller

 

This is a good question and chapter 15 has a lot going on. I think reading the verses around these verses helps put them in proper context.

Basically what is going on here is Christ’s victory over the final foe—sin death—being separated from the presence of God.

Christ is abolishing the authority and power of sin death over us and restoring our relationship with God.

 

Hello Mel,

Let me trying rephrasing this and maybe that will help. Thanks for helping me clear the point up.

When Christ comes he comes in the aer—which is the Greek term used here which denotes the spiritual realm. Not the atmosphere and clouds. Satan was the prince of the spiritual realm before his fall. The aer was thought to be the dwelling place of evil spirits. The spiritual realm was seen as having authority over us here on earth. We wrestle not against flesh and bone, but powers and principalities. When Christ came in the aer (spiritual realm) he was seen as defeating Satan on his home turf signifying his complete victory over Satan. Christians were meeting him in the spiritual realm. I should say Christians met him not on earth, but in the aer (Spiritual realm). Again thank you for pointing that out.

The dead did rise first in that they are transformed and readmitted back in to the presence of God—they went to be with him in heaven. And, now when we die we go straight to heaven to dwell in His presence instead of going to Sheol.

Paul writing in terminology familiar to his audience, explained Christ was bringing reconciliation with God back to us on earth. He came in the aer (spiritual realm) Christians met him there as an arriving king in this unseen dimension—which of course rules out a physical return of Christ, but let’s not get to complicated at the moment. We meet Christ in triumph in the aer (spiritual realm) not fly up into the sky. This is consistent with the balance of the bible. The bible is not about science and the atmosphere, etc—it’s about spiritual matters and how Christ reconciles us back into God’s presence.

No one will be raptured away from earth in the future. Thessalonians explains the wedding feast, return of Christ, end of the Old Covenant and beginning of the New Covenant, our reconciliation back into the presence of God. The glorious and magnificent workings of Christ on our behalf.

It also verified that the Jews persecuting the Christians would be punished in 70 AD at the time that these events happened.

Thessalonians is a great foundation for full Preterism. It’s too bad the book has been so badly maligned by dispensational teaching.

 

Lastday

Logos1
You write:

I think that full Preterism doubles the "malignment" of a Pre-Trib Rapture!
At least they allow the "Dead in Christ" to include all Martyrs since AD 70!!
Your view has Christ coming as King before He appears as the Bridegroom!!!
Mel

 

Thanks Brother, but,:

".....at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God..."

There seems to be a finality in that 'coming' that full preterism doesn't satisfactorily address. JMHO.

But it also tells me that the Kingdom is NOW, and not somewhere off in the far distant future as pre-mil dispensationalism says.

 

I completely agree with you that Jesus will not come to avenge the martyrs until the last one had died.

But you keep insisting that John will be alive when Jesus comes, and that is not shown in scripture whatsoever. It was the brethren that misunderstood what Jesus said to Peter and spread the rumor that John would remain alive until Jesus comes, but the scriptures very carefully point out that is not what Jesus said.

You keep insisting that I am saying Jesus was misleading, I am saying no such thing. Jesus did not say John would be alive when he comes. It is you that fails to understand this verse.

John 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

I don't know how to make it any clearer, John 21:23 is very careful to say that Jesus SAID NOT he shall not die. With all respect, it is you that is misrepresenting what this verse is saying.

 

Hi Kyredneck,

Maybe you can explain to me better how I'm missing your point if I'm not addressing it properly.

When you say "There seems to be a finality in that 'coming' that full preterism doesn't satisfactorily address."

I agree there is certainly finality associated with the events around Christ's return..the end of the Old Covenant, Christ victory over the final enemy...sin death or separation from God presence, the final end of Old Covenant Jerusalem and the Temple and all it stands. A lot of things are wrapped up in his coming.

 

The whole mindset of that is baffling...with all due respect my friend it's not about martyrs, it's about Christ.


Preterists recognize the final Victory of Christ and celebrate it now. Futurists have to put it off and off and off waiting for His return. A hundred million years from now how foolish will it look to quote Christ that he is coming quickly and keep saying that it is yet future. Every year that passes makes preterism look more solid and correct and futurism look more awkward and bizarre.

So if the enemy of Christ wanted to rob his followers of claiming the victory that is theirs how would he go about it...maybe sell them on the idea that Christ hadn't returned yet. He wouldn't have to out right deny Christ ultimate victory just convince his followers that they were still waiting on it. To that end when futurist deny the already won victory of Christ who are they working for even if its unintentional. I won't say so that no one can misquote me or feel upset that I called them any names, but I think you can see where the logical conclusion would take you here. A little food for thought.

 

Winman,
I have stated over and over, from the start, that I agree with your statement:
Quote: "Jesus did not say John would be alive when he comes. It is you that
fails to understand this verse". End of Quote.

My point is that John corrected what the Apostles "thought Jesus said"!
Jesus actually allowed that "if He wished, John may live untill He comes"!!
The possibility therefore exists that John never died. You should admit it!!!
Mel Miller

 

Logos1,

Quote:
"The whole mindset of that is baffling...with all due respect my friend it's
not about martyrs, it's about Christ". End of Quote.

Again, you so easily "brush off" the sub-central truth of the Book of Revelation!
The Book's central truth is that Christ will be revealed at the End of this Age!!
The central sub-truth is that He will be revealed when the last Martyr dies!!!
Mel

 

It is one thing to say it is a possibility, it is quite another to be dogmatic about it.

I do not know who the two witnesses in Revelations are, there are a great many theories on this.

I think it would be odd to have John seeing a future vision of himself as one of these witnesses, but it is a possibility. Anything is possible.

The one verse that would support your view is Rev 10:11

Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

We do not know exactly what is meant here. It says John must prophesy "again". When did he prophesy the first time? I would say this is speaking of Revelations chapters 1 through 10, and now there is further revelation to be given to John. This could very well be speaking of the following chapters 11-22.

So, while I still do not agree that Jesus was saying John would be alive, and that the scripture corrects this rumor, there is a possibility that you are correct, but I do not think you have shown convincing evidence for this.

Just out of curiousity, who do you believe the second witness is?