Your church and the rapture...

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by 4xBlessed, Apr 14, 2004.

  1. 4xBlessed

    4xBlessed
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    Can you tell me what Baptist denomination you belong to and what position it holds regarding the rapture? My church is Independent Baptist. I agree with everything in the doctrine except for the rapture teaching. I've read the arguments on the rapture and can honestly say that I don't have an opinion on. I'd like to find a Baptist church that possibly doesn't hold a position on the rapture. The church I go to now preaches about the rapture in some form pretty much every week, so I'm thinking maybe it's time to find a church where I don't have to hear about a doctrine every single week that I can't fully support.

    Are there Baptist churches that don't have a position on the rapture? Since I'm undecided and have been undecided for a long time, I'm hoping so because I don't know for sure that I'll come to a definite conclusion one way or the other. Thanks!

    Lucy (who needs to change her name to 5xBlessed)
     
  2. Baptist Believer

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    I am a member of the Baptist General Convention of Texas. We do not dictate a position on the rapture.

    My church is also a member of the Southern Baptist Convention (although most of us try to avoid claiming it) because some of our members designate a portion of their gifts to the SBC. The Southern Baptist Convention also does not dictate a view of the rapture.

    Good for you. The only rapture that will occur will be at the end of the age when the church will meet the Lord in the air as He returns to judge the living and the dead.

    Apparently the popular version of the rapture teaching (that the rapture will occur long before the Second Coming of Christ) originated in a vision received by a 15-year-old girl named Margaret McDonald (sometimes spelled ‘MacDonald’) in 1830. It was popularized by Darby and then included in Scofield’s Bible, thus infiltrating churches across the word. (Those who attacked Christians for going to see “The Passion” because of its association with mystical visions, need to seriously consider their position on the popular rapture teaching.)

    Even among Southern Baptist and Baptist General Convention of Texas churches, you will find that many of them hold to the popular rapture teaching – although it is less likely with the BGCT churches, since fewer pastors are premillenial dispensationalists.
     
  3. Pete Richert

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    My church is Independent Reformed Baptist. The church leadership is amillieniel, and therefor does not believe in the rapture. Various members may hold various views. I don't have a firm view as of yet.

    I am a pretty firm believer that a church should teach from the Bible expositionally verse by verse and so no one doctrine should be taught every week. If you take a strong position on the rapture, then by all means give it while preaching through Thessonlians, Matthew, etc, but not every week because it is your pet doctrine. Even my church, which prides itself on a verse by verse preaching of the Bible tends to slip in Calvinist teachings everywhere, being that it is vehemently calvinist.

    I'm not sure this is true and I have heard it argued that this vision was a POST-tribulational rapture vision, and that Darby already had the rapture in print three years before this vision. Either way, IT IS IRRELEVENT!!! The only thing that determines whether the rapture is true or false is what the Bible teaches, and if the Bible teaches the rapture is true then it is true even if it was first discovered by a fifteen year old woman having a vision. We need not concern ourselves with orgins of different beliefs but rather deal with the Biblical text, unless we can make some very strong claim about why a group misreads a text off of some historical reason, and then it is only adding our understanding of the text, not superceeding it. I think just about all of my theology at one time or antother has been dragged through the mud on supposed origins of it, and my answer is always the same. Show me in the Bible, not the history book.
     
  4. Baptist Believer

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    I'm not sure this is true and I have heard it argued that this vision was a POST-tribulational rapture vision, and that Darby already had the rapture in print three years before this vision.</font>[/QUOTE]There is a lot of controversy on this point for understandable reasons.

    I agree.

    But unfortunately for those who hold to the popular rapture teaching, the Bible does not teach a rapture that is separate from the Second Coming. The rapture is on the Day of the Lord – no sooner.
     
  5. Johnv

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    denom? SBC. Rapture position? We're too busy preaching about Jesus' first coming to worry excessively about his second coming.
     
  6. dianetavegia

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    I'm SBC and our local church and every church I've ever been a member of believes and teaches that the rapture will occur before the tribulation.

    Diane
     
  7. Daniel David

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    BB, you have been misled on this issue.

    Mag McDonald's vision does not relate to pretribulational theology at all. If one could align it with a systematic theology, it would be more of a partial-rapture theology than anything else.

    Besides, the earliest of the fathers taught the imminent return of Christ and the chiliast (premillenial) return.

    That can only be pretribulation, premillenial.
     
  8. Baptist Believer

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    BB, you have been misled on this issue.

    Mag McDonald's vision does not relate to pretribulational theology at all. If one could align it with a systematic theology, it would be more of a partial-rapture theology than anything else.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Hmm… I may well be wrong about this. I’ll defer to your assessment of it until I get better information.

    Yes, I agree.

    Matthew 24:32-51 describes the return of Christ to judge the living and the dead. Those who are righteous (those alert and waiting) are left behind, and those who are unrighteous (those caught by surprise) are taken to destruction.

    I need to go research the views of the fathers before I respond.

    Thanks!
     
  9. LadyEagle

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    Me, too. Including IFB, GARB. [​IMG] However, as of this past Sunday, (for the second time in my life), I am now SBC (having joined on Sunday).

    Hey, when you have moved around a lot, what can I say? [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Seriously, before I joined the BB, I thought ALL Baptists believed in a pre-tribulation rapture and 7-year tribulation and 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ.

    And, in fact, I don't personally know in real life, one Baptist who doesn't. Go figure. :rolleyes:
     
  10. Johnv

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    Welcome to the SBC. You're now in fellowship with me. :D Of course, you and I were in fellowship in Christ prior to that.
     
  11. Another Messenger

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    So about this Rapture,,

    2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
    2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
    2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
    2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    If this verse is not speaking of the Pre trib rapture,, what pray tell is it speaking of.. For truthfully,, what does withhold the (mystery of iniquity)=(antichrist) where he cannot opperate in his freewill, as the restrainer is still among us?
     
  12. Pete Richert

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    Seems pretty clear to me.

    by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, . . . Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

    How is that pretrib????? How can we be gathered to him AFTER the man of sin is revealed.

    Like I said before, I am not sure has other passages seem to indicate a pre-trib rapture. This certainly has always said the opposite to me though. Unless all of those who claim to be plain and literal start talking like a day is not a day, and that there are gaps (here and there) to make this all work.
     
  13. 4xBlessed

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    Thank you all so much for your replies. Like I said, I don't hold a view at this point. I've read a lot on this subject and it seems to me that more than one view makes sense, and that makes it very difficult for me to come to a conclusion. I think another thing that makes it difficult for me is that I think the Bible is fairly easy to understand, but if I had never heard of the rapture before I can't say that I would've ever picked up on it by reading scripture by myself.

    Lucy
     
  14. Another Messenger

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    2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


    The way I feel to believe,, is this,, that we go through certian trials and trubulations,, but,, probably not what the earth will see during the 7 year tribulation.

    See, Christs return in the air,, that gathers the dead in Christ, and the living saved,, is the only method of moving the restrainer,, being the Holy Spirit (the restrainer,, who holdeth back,, and will let) This Antichrist,, or prince to come,, actually show himself to everyone.

    Now,, it says,, needs only be revealed,, not recieved a crown or dictatorship yet,, Just revealed. So then,, at the time of his revealing,, I expect a Rapture and the Holy Spirit,, (the great restrainer) to be caught away,, so that this World leader may lead in the path that is spoken of in Daniel and Revelations.

    So,, there is this idea I really like,, as that if the holy Spirit or restrainer is removed,, then all of the Body of Christ will have to be removed. (or) Some of the Holy Spirit would remain.

    Now, if Christ came in the air,, then either in the mid week of the 70th week (daniels vision) OR at the very end of the week or 7th year would be the battle,, Where Christ would actually descend, his feet on the Mount of Olives,, and begin the wrath of God against the nations that came against Israel. Returning with his saints,, for war,, defeating the rulers of the world,, and setting up his reign for 1000 years.

    yet,, the saved of the pre-trib rapture would be with our king,, to make war with the armies of the world. where the blood will run as deep as the horses bit.
     
  15. Pete Richert

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    First off, the restrainer being the Holy Spirit is an intrepretation, and im my opinion, is dominated by the preconceived notion of the pre-trib rapture in the first place, ie the church with the Holy Spirit in it is removed. It could be other things though (some have suggested the Arch Angel Michael, tying this passage into Daniel) and a host of other things. It could be the Holy Spirit, but I'm not sure its wise to read from the Holy Spirit to the pre-trib rapture and not vice versa.

    But let me see if I understand you. You are saying the rapture occurs after the man of sin is revealed but not yet ruling (as in the tribulation.) I must also assume then that the rapture occurs after the great falling away. So in affect, these two signs must happen before the rapture and the rapture in that sense can not be immenient (since these two things must happen first), unless you wish to argue that the great falling away is happening right now (as some might argue) and that the man of sin is only revealed in some general sense in that he might be being revealed right now (though it has to be enough that the Thessonlians Christians could have recognized it, and I assume, therefor us). Is this your position?
     
  16. Another Messenger

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    Pretty strong leaning toward that thought,, Yet,, a falling away, would be the result of people who once resided in the presence of the bride,, or His Church,, being a mix of all Redeemed denominations that believe in the Christ, Cross, and resurrection. Those that put their faith in Christs perfect work upon the cross.
    The falling away would be,, those that are descendants of those saved, who have heard, yet not followed up in the way of their upbringing.

    One that is saved, being a new being in Christ, is not able to fall away,, If you believe that once your are saved,, always saved. So, the falling away happens to the children of those that raised them in the Churches,, like todays baby boomers, a great falling away,, the baby boomers are the perfect example.

    For countries like russia, and other places that have just been made available to the spreading of the gospel,, Gods people are growing, instead of falling away,, yet, the gospel has been preached through out the entire globe,, and lots of people are flocking to salvation.

    Yet again, I say, one cannot fall away, lest he has been near, so in a since,, if you realise whats going on in america,, and the Not so Rightious relationships between man and man,, and woman and woman,, right in our midst is a great falling away. One such as no generation has seen in this country ever.

    Sad to have your teenagers coming home,, speaking of other girls aproaching your daughters,, and other boys aproaching your son,, in a way that has nothing to do with Christs love,, but promotes the vanity of satans lust of the flesh. Yes,, world wide there is both,, a coming to the Spirit of God,, and yet, a great falling away as well.
     
  17. go2church

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    I don't preach or teach the rapture as taught by dispensationalism, but there are some that hold to dispensationalism within the congregation I pastor. We support a strong priesthood of the believer position, so it really isn't a problem. Everyone is encouraged to decided for themselves, we all agree and teach that Christ is returning and you better be ready
     
  18. Ed Edwards

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    Pete Richert: "How is that pretrib?"

    My church is Southern Baptist.
    Each individual has their own eschatology. The most
    common is pretrib rapture and premillinnial
    Second Coming of Jesus. Of course, i teach them all,
    all that i know of. There seems to be more eschatologies
    now than 20 years ago.

    Here is mine that i started writing about ten years
    ago. Somebody said that it was interesting, but
    John the Revelator never mentioned the rapture.
    I found John did it by type in Revelation 4:1.
    Somebody else said that it was intersting, but
    Jesus never mentioned the rapture. He did, it
    is called the gathering in Matthew 24:31.
    Anyway, here is my pretribulation premillinnial
    eschatology (in a nut shell, my whole prewritten
    display runs 200-250 screens all of which appears
    here already, somewhere):

    --------------------

    Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

    0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
    1. rapture/resurrection
    2. Tribulation time
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom
    5. new heaven & new earth

    The timeline according to Matthew 24
    (Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
    Mark 13, Luke 21):

    0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
    Matthew 24:4-15

    1. rapture/resurrection
    Matthew 24:31-44

    2. Tribulation time
    Matthew 24:21-28

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    Matthew 24:29-30)

    Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
    (4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
    (5. new heaven & new earth)

    The timeline according to Revelation:

    0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 &lt;== you are here!
    1. rapture/resurrection - Rev 4:1 (type)
    2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
    3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
    4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
    5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

    The timeline according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

    0. church age continues &lt;== you are here!
    (implied, until the falling away)

    1. rapture/resurrection
    v.1 - gathering together unto him
    v.3 - falling away

    2. Tribulation time
    (time of the man of sin)

    3. Second Advent of Jesus event
    v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    v.8

    Not mentioned:
    (4. literal MK=millinnial kingdom)
    (5. new heaven & new earth)

    ----------------------------

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Daniel David

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    Pete, just a few of things:

    1. As you know, I am pretrib and reject the idea that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer. I do believe that Michael the (only) archangel is the restrainer.

    2. 2 Thess. is about the return of Christ to the earth. Paul's point is that if the tribulation is already here, why are you? He is correcting their misunderstanding of what he had orally taught them and what 1 Thess. addresses.

    3. I do not find charts to be all that wise. They are good to give a systematic outline, but not to use it to read back into Scripture (what Ed does).
     
  20. Baptist Believer

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    As I've pointed out many times before, this passage CANNOT be referring to a pretribulation rapture because those who are evil are taken away and those who are righteous remain -- we know this because Jesus is making a comparison between that time and the flood of Noah. Noah and his ark-mates remained and those who were outside the ark were "taken away" by the floodwaters.

    Any interpretation that teaches that this passage indicates that the righteous will be "taken" completely twists (contradicts) the words of Jesus. While I don't understand the full meaning of this passage (I'm undecided as to whether this has already occured, has partially been fulfilled or is completely in the future), it is clear from the context that this is not what is popularly known as "the rapture".
     

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