David Barton

[windcatcher]

I find Ben' Franklin's redition of 'the Lord's prayer' rather interesting.

Penned Jan. 1, 1768:

A New Version of the Lord's Prayer
"Heavenly Father, may all revere thee, and become thy dutiful Children and faithful Subjects; may thy Laws be obeyed on Earth as perfectly as they are in Heaven: Provide for us this Day as thou hast hitherto daily done: Forgive us our Trespasses, and enable us likewise to forgive those that offend us. Keep us out of Temptation, and deliver us from Evil."

Reasons for the Change of Expression

Old Version. Our Father which art in Heaven

New V. Heavenly Father, is more concise, equally expressive, and better modern English.

Old. Hallowed be thy Name. This seems to relate to an Observance among the Jews not to pronounce the proper or peculiar Name of God, they deeming it a Profanation so to do. We have in our Language noproper Name for God; the Word God being a common or general Name, expressing all chief Objects of Worship, true or false. The Word hallowed is almost obsolete: People now have but an imperfect Conception of the Meaning of the Petition. It is therefore proposed to change the Expression into New. May all revere thee.

Old V. Thy Kingdom come. This Petition seems suited to the then Condition of the Jewish Nation. Originally their State was a Theocracy: God was their King. Dissatisfied with that kind of Government, they desired a visible earthly King in the manner of the Nations round them. They had such King's accordingly; but their Happiness was not increas'd by the Change, and they had reason to wish and pray for a Return of the Theocracy, or Government of God. Christians in these Times have other Ideas when they speak of the Kingdom of God, such as are perhaps more adequately express'd by New V. And become thy dutiful Children and faithful Subjects.

Old V. Thy Will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven More explicitly, New V. May thy Laws be obeyed on Earth as perfectly as they are in Heaven.

Old V. Give us this Day our daily Bread. Give us what is ours, seems to put in a Claim of Right, and to contain too little of the grateful Acknowledgment and Sense of Dependance that becomes Creatures who live on the daily Bounty of their Creator. Therefore it is changed to New V. Provide for us this Day, as thou hast hitherto daily done.

Old V. Forgive us our Debts as we forgive our Debtors. Matthew. Forgive us our Sins, for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. Luke. Offerings were due to God on many Occasions by the Jewish Law, which when People could not pay, or had forgotten as Debtors are apt to do, it was proper to pray that those Debts might be forgiven. Our Liturgy uses neither the Debtors of Matthew, nor the indebted of Luke, but instead of them speaks of those that trespass against us. Perhaps the Considering it as a Christian Duty to forgive Debtors, was by the Compilers thought an inconvenient Idea in a trading Nation. There seems however something presumptious in this Mode of Expression, which has the Air of proposing ourselves as an Example of Goodness fit for God to imitate. We hope you will at least be as good as we are; you see we forgive one another, and therefore we pray that you would forgive us. Some have considered it in another Sense, Forgive us as we forgive others; i.e. If we do not forgive others we pray that thou wouldst not forgive us. But this being a kind of conditional Imprecation against ourselves, seems improper in such a Prayer; and therefore it may be better to say humbly and modestly New V. Forgive us our Trespasses, and enable us likewise to forgive those that offend us. This instead of assuming that we have already in and of ourselves the Grace of Forgiveness, acknowledges our Dependance on God, the Fountain of Mercy, for any Share we may have of it, praying that he would communicate of it to us.

Old V. And lead us not into Temptation. The Jews had a Notion, that God sometimes tempted, or directed or permitted the Tempting of People. Thus it was said he tempted Pharaoh; directed Satan to tempt Job; and a false Prophet to tempt Ahab, &c. Under this Persuasion it was natural for them to pray that he would not put them to such severe Trials. We now suppose that Temptation, so far as it is supernatural, comes from the Devil only; and this Petition continued, conveys a Suspicion which in our present Conceptions seems unworthy of God, Therefore might be altered to New V. Keep us out of Temptation.

 

[windcatcher]

James Madison's response to Rev. Jasper Adams regarding religion and government and taxation
excerts follow:
timeline: Jan., 1, 1832

In the Colonial State of the Country, there were four examples, R. I, N. J., Penna, and Delaware, & the greater part of N. Y. where there were no religious Establishments; the support of Religion being left to the voluntary associations & contributions of individuals; and certainly the religious condition of those Colonies, will well bear a comparison with that where establishments existed.

As it may be suggested that experiments made in Colonies more or less under the Control of a foreign Government, had not the full scope necessary to display their tendency, it is fortunate that the appeal can now be made to their effects under a complete exemption from any such Control.

It is true that the New England States have not discontinued establishments of Religion formed under very peculiar circumstances; but they have by successive relaxations advanced towards the prevailing example; and without any evidence of disadvantage either to Religion or good Government.

And if we turn to the Southern States where there was, previous to the Declaration of independence, a legal provision for the support of Religion; and since that event a surrender of it to a spontaneous support by the people, it may be said that the difference amounts nearly to a contrast in the greater purity & industry of the Pastors and in the greater devotion of their flocks, in the latter period than in the former. In Virginia the contrast is particularly striking, to those whose memories can make the comparison. It will not be denied that causes other than the abolition of the legal establishment of Religion are to be taken into view in account for the change in the Religious character of the community. But the existing character, distinguished as it is by its religious features, and the lapse of time now more than 50 years since the legal support of Religion was withdrawn sufficiently prove that it does not need the support of Govt and it will scarcely be contended that Government has suffered by the exemption of Religion from its cognizance, or its pecuniary aid.

iow, in some of the colonies there originally existed taxation to support the churches, which gradually was removed, to give no preference to any church or denomination....... to much advantage.

I must admit moreover that it may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions & doubts on unessential points. The tendency to a usurpation on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded agst by an entire abstinence of: the Govt from interference in any way whatever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, & protecting each sect agst trespasses on its legal rights by others.

iow, it sounds like Madison recommended not only no revenue of government to support religion, but also the total abstinence of government interference upon religion "beyond the necessity of preserving public order and protecting each sect agst[sic] trepasses on its legal rights by others."

[emphasis and bolding added by poster.]

 

[windcatcher]

George Washington's Farewell Address 1796


Here he gives caution to economy and debts:

Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

Additionally, he gives caution against foreign alliances, involvement in others politics, honesty in commericial ventures, the importance of unity above differences, and cautions against regional jealousies, and caution in use and abuse of powers, and the essentials of morality and law for a free people.

He closes:

Though, in reviewing the incidents of my administration, I am unconscious of intentional error, I am nevertheless too sensible of my defects not to think it probable that I may have committed many errors. Whatever they may be, I fervently beseech the Almighty to avert or mitigate the evils to which they may tend. I shall also carry with me the hope that my country will never cease to view them with indulgence; and that, after forty five years of my life dedicated to its service with an upright zeal, the faults of incompetent abilities will be consigned to oblivion, as myself must soon be to the mansions of rest.

Relying on its kindness in this as in other things, and actuated by that fervent love towards it, which is so natural to a man who views in it the native soil of himself and his progenitors for several generations, I anticipate with pleasing expectation that retreat in which I promise myself to realize, without alloy, the sweet enjoyment of partaking, in the midst of my fellow-citizens, the benign influence of good laws under a free government, the ever-favorite object of my heart, and the happy reward, as I trust, of our mutual cares, labors, and dangers.

 

[windcatcher]

THANKSGIVING PROCLAMATION

PROCLAMATION.
A NATIONAL THANKSGIVING.
[From Sparks's Washington, Vol. XII, p. Tl9.]
Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and

Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me " to recommend to the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness: "

Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favor, able interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquillity, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted; for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations, and beseech Him to pardon our national and other trangressions; to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shown kindness to us), and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us; and, generally, to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as He alone knows to be best.

- Given under my hand, at the city of New York, the 3d day of October,

A. D. 1789. G.ø WASHINGTON.

Source:
A Compilation of the Messages and Papers of the Presidents
Prepared under the direction of the Joint Committee on printing, of the House and Senate
Pursuant to an Act of the Fifty-Second Congress of the United States.
New York : Bureau of National Literature, Inc., 1897

 

[windcatcher]

The opening to his address:

Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death

Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775.
No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The question before the House is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.

The close:

They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

FROM HERE

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Catcher, while there was a wide spectrum of views on religion by the founders...Deism, Christianity, Unitarianism, etc. Patrick Henry was one early patriot who was, according to my reading, staunchly Catholic, and somewhat of a theocrat in wanting to tax the citizenry to support Christian ministers. Thankfully, he was unsuccessful in his attempts to get that done.

 

[Martin]

I find Ben' Franklin's redition of 'the Lord's prayer' rather interesting.

Penned Jan. 1, 1768:

"
To Ezra Stiles (unpublished)
Philada March 9. 1790

Reverend and Dear Sir,
I received your kind Letter of Jany 28, and am glad you have at length received the Portraits of Govr Yale from his Family, and deposited it in the College Library. He was a great and good Man, and has the Merit of doing infinite Service to your Country by his Munificence to that Institution. The Honour you propose doing me by placing in the same Room with his, is much too great for my Deserts; but you always had a Partiality for me, and to that it must be ascribed. I am however too much obliged to Yale College, the first learned Society that took Notice of me, and adorned me with its Honours, to refuse a Request that comes from it thro’ so esteemed a Friend. But I do not think any one of the Portraits you mention as in my Possession worthy of the Place and Company you propose to place it in. You have an excellent Artist lately arrived. If he will undertake to make one for you, I shall chearfully pay the Expence: But he must not long delay setting about it, or I may slip thro’ his Fingers, for I am now in my 85th Year’s and very infirm.
I send with this a very learned Work, (as it seems to me) on the antient Samaritan Coins, lately printed in Spain, and at least curious for the Beauty of the Impression. Please to accept it for your College Library. I have subscribed for the Encyclopedia now printing here, with the Intention of presenting it to the College; I shall probably depart before the Work is finished, but shall leave Directions for its Continuance to the End. With this you will receive some of the first Numbers.
You desire to know something of my Religion. It is the first time I have been questioned upon it: But I do not take your Curiosity amiss, and shall endeavour in a few Words to gratify it. Here is my Creed: I believe in one God, Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by his Providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable Service we can render to him, is doing Good to his other Children. That the Soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its Conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental Principles of all sound Religion, and I regard them as you do, in whatever Sect I meet with them. As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw, or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his Divinity: tho’ it is a Question I do not dogmatise upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble. I see no harm however in its being believed, if that Belief has the good Consequence as probably it has, of making his Doctrines more respected and better observed, especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the Believers, in his Government of the World, with any particular Marks of his Displeasure. I shall only add respecting myself, that having experienced the Goodness of that Being, in conducting me prosperously thro’ a long Life, I have no doubt of its Continuance in the next, tho’ without the smallest Conceit of meriting such Goodness. My Sentiments in this Head you will see in the Copy of an old Letter enclosed, which I wrote in answer to one from a zealous Religionist whom I had relieved in a paralitic Case by Electricity, and who being afraid I should grow proud upon it, sent me his serious, tho’ rather impertinent, Cautions. I send you also the Copy of another Letter, which will shew something of my Disposition relating to Religion. With great and sincere Esteem and Affection, I am, Dear Sir, Your obliged old Friend and most obedient humble Servant

B Franklin


p.s. Had not your College some Present of Books from the King of France? Please to let me know if you had an Expectation given you of more, and the Nature of that Expectation. I have a Reason for the Enquiry. (I confide, that you will not expose me to Criticism and Censure by publishing any part of this Communication to you. I have ever let others enjoy their religious Sentiments, without reflecting on them for those that appeared to me insupportable and even absurd. All Sects here, and we have a great Variety, have experienced my Good will in assisting them with Subscriptions for building their new Places of Worship, and as I have never opposed any of their Doctrines I hope to go out of the World in Peace with them all.)

Revd. Dr. Stiles, President of Yale College &c
Endorsed in margin: Recd from Dr Franklin 26 March 1790 Dr. Franklin died April 17. 1790 At. 85.

Franklin's views of Jesus, while put in a very respectful manner, is error. Why? Because he denies, or at the very least doubts, the Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ. The Bible is very clear that Jesus is God (Jn 1:1,14, Col 1:15-16, etc). Franklin was certainly a religious man, as his statement above prove, but I don't believe we have any real reason to think that he was a Christian (Biblically speaking). Keeping in mind that Franklin wrote this letter in March of 1790. He would die less than a month later in April 1790.

This was my point with Barton. It is really easy to quote parts of someone like B. Franklin and end up misleading people about his views. I'm not saying that Barton (etc) are doing that on purpose. In fact, I think they are very sincere in their assertions. However sincerity is no measure of truth or accuracy.

 

[windcatcher]

But isn't that the whole of the point? It is not that all our founding fathers were Christian or were perfect in their theology but it is that most of them had respect for the Bible and the morals and religious expression which spring from its teachings, and revered its teachings as a suitable scafolling for social behavior and structure?

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Catcher, if you haven't, read Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason". He was anything BUT a respecter of the Bible.

 

[Martin]

But isn't that the whole of the point? It is not that all our founding fathers were Christian or were perfect in their theology but it is that most of them had respect for the Bible and the morals and religious expression which spring from its teachings, and revered its teachings as a suitable scafolling for social behavior and structure?

==I would agree that certainly Franklin falls into that category. However I would argue that Thomas Jefferson does not. Anyone who would literally cut verses out of the Bible does not respect the Bible.

 

[windcatcher]

Catcher, if you haven't, read Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason". He was anything BUT a respecter of the Bible.

Many of our founding fathers found T. Paine's work initiatially invigorating... but as he continued writing.... and they got to know him better, they started keeping distance from him..... some quietly, some openly denouceing him.... but generally his final reputation with them was not nearly as great as some of the history text might lead us to believe.

Washington and Jefferson were definately masons. No doubt many others were also. It seems that in times of unrest where trust and loyalties even in 'minor' things like social discourse regarding politics and disagreement with or a distrust of the justice of authorities can prove to have lasting if not fatal consequences, there's an increase in people's willingness to enter secret alliances with oaths binding them to each other in confidence. Whether Washington and Franklin were Christians..... they both exhibited in their leadership and conscience many attributes or fruit which no doubt reflected that the Bible and its teachings, if esteemed for nothing more than a superior book of religious instruction and expose of the human condition, had immense impact upon them. Franklin, if I recall correctly, was a bit more of a loose character in his personal life.

Washington, if my memory serves correctly, instituted chaplans for the military, a sabbath day of observance....provided necessity of war or emergency didn't preempt it, and, I believe, though having slaves, saw slavery as an scourge and freed them in his will.

Jefferson gave much lip service to the evils of slavery but kept his and didn't free them.....even upon his death. So much of our history refers to the 'Jeffersonian traditions' yet I have found very little of favor with Jefferson.

As for Franklin....... the constitutional congress was in a dead lock for weeks and it appeared to be tottering on the precipiece of ruin when he open with a motion and a appeal to all that they start beseeching God for wisdom and direction as they went about discussions and formulating the final document. This they did, and I have no doubt that God answered their prayers..... even perhaps moving upon those who were without faith to submit their talents to his guidance and unite in producing a document which would serve us most admirably today if strictly adhered to, imho.

Perhaps there is great difficulty in ascribing to God, His providence and blessings surrounding our early beginnings as we attempt to produce more sanitized versions of history devoid of the influence of religion: But to remove God from having directed in these affairs, is to leave wide open the question of how such a mottley body of flawed characters established a government of men and for men more perfect than any other heretofore.... and as far as I can see.... of any which will follow after?