Senator's Affair Revealed in Text Message

[Johnv]

The thread below disagrees with you:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=61890&highlight=ectopic&page=11

Revmitchell, annsi, ccrobinson, Robert Snow, KenH, HankD, and others all concur with the position of being against abortion, but permitting it in cases where the life of the mother such as in cases of an ectopic pregnancy is permissible. Scarlett O., canadyjd, rbell, BigBossman, Matt Black, Marcia, and sag38 have elsewhere said that abortion in cases of ectopic pregnancy is permissible. And these posters are among the most ardent pro-life supporters on the board.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Youy should word it that way, then. The people who bothered to post on a particular thread do not make up the entire BB.

I don't agree with them. Their way, my dad would never have been born. And there is no need to assume that nowadays, with the medical advances we have made, that the life of the mother is without hope.

 

[Johnv]

I stand by what I said earlier. From every indication, most people on the BB would concur that elective abortion is always wrong, but that abortion in cases of situations such as ectopic pregnancy are permissible. On the flip side, there's nothing to suggest that most people on the bb would oppose abortion in cases of ectopic pregnancy. Such an abortion qualifies scripturally as self defense, and is therefore scripturally permissible. If, however, a person with an ectopic pregnancy wishes not to terminate it, I support that as well.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

It still comes down to you putting words in people's mouths.

And I challenge you to prove killing a live fetus to save the mother is scripturally permissable. Like an example, or someting.

 

[Johnv]

It still comes down to you putting words in people's mouths.

You can't accuse me of that and be innocent yourself. You said most people here are against abortion period. I said most people here are against all elective abortion, but would not oppose abortion in cases such as ectopic pregnancy. I cited specific examples where other bb members shared my position, and you cited absolutely nothing. And you said I didn't know what I was talking about. Funny.

And I challenge you to prove killing a live fetus to save the mother is scripturally permissable. Like an example, or someting.

That's easy. that was addressed here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=61890&highlight=ectopic&page=11

Scripture permits self defense. An ectopic pregnancy puts the mothers' life in imminent danger of beign killed. Therefore, terminating an ectopic pregnancy is scripturally permitted.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I didn't ask you that. I asked you for a scriptural reference to a baby being killed to save the life of the mother. Your argument with Annsni doesn't do it.

Also, a dead fetus cannot be technically aborted. So that point is moot.

 

[Johnv]

Are you saying that scripture doesn't support self defense?

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Are you copping out ?

 

[Johnv]

No, I'm not copping out. You, however, are being rather rude and infantile. Now, please answer my question. Are you saying that scripture doesn't support self defense? It's important to know here you stand to know which scripture to post.

IAlso, a dead fetus cannot be technically aborted. So that point is moot.

Not sure what your'e referring to. No one here has mentioned a dead fetus at all.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

No, I'm not copping out. You, however, are being rather rude and infantile. Now, please answer my question. Are you saying that scripture doesn't support self defense? It's important to know here you stand to know which scripture to post.

You say that a lot. But there is nothing rude, or infantile about asking you to back up your position. Can you come up with a scriptural reference for a baby being killed to save the mother ?

Not sure what your'e referring to. No one here has mentioned a dead fetus at all.

Actually, there was a reference to that on the thread you cited.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Remember, Joseph's mom died giving birth to Benjamin. Should she have been spared ?

 

[Johnv]

Can you come up with a scriptural reference for a baby being killed to save the mother ?

That's why I'm asking you if you believe scripture permits self defense. Why do you want me to post scripture that permits self defense if you already believe that scripture permits self defense?

First, let's ask what scripture admonishes. Scripture admonishes murder. self defense isn't murder, so scripture that condemns murder doesn't apply. Further, on the specific nature of defending oneself, there are several scriptural references, the most notable one being Exosus 22, which states expressly that a person killing another in self defense shall not be guilty of bloodshed.

Second, let's ask why the terminating of an ectopic regnancy is self defense. An ectopic pregnancy is going to kill the mother. Doing nothing kills the fetus and the mother. Terminating the fetus kills the fetus, but spares the mother. The mother's life, who would ahve otherwise died, is spared. That's categorically self defense.

Actually, there was a reference to that on the thread you cited.

That's not what's being discussed here. What's being discussd here is whether scripture permits abortion in cases such as ectopic pregnancy. Scripture permits self defense. Terminating an ectopic pregnancy is self defense. It is therefore scripturally permitted. Unless you don't believe that scripture permits killing in self defense.

And like I said, it appears that more bb members concur with that than do not. It shoudl be noted that the most ardent opposers of abortion here concur with termination of an ectopic pregnancy to be self defense.

Remember, Joseph's mom died giving birth to Benjamin. Should she have been spared ?

According to scripture, it would not have been a sin had she been spared.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

That's why I'm asking you if you believe scripture permits self defense. Why do you want me to post scripture that permits self defense if you already believe that scripture permits self defense?

First, let's ask what scripture admonishes. Scripture admonishes murder. self defense isn't murder, so scripture that condemns murder doesn't apply. Further, on the specific nature of defending oneself, there are several scriptural references, the most notable one being Exosus 22, which states expressly that a person killing another in self defense shall not be guilty of bloodshed.

Second, let's ask why the terminating of an ectopic regnancy is self defense. An ectopic pregnancy is going to kill the mother. Doing nothing kills the fetus and the mother. Terminating the fetus kills the fetus, but spares the mother. The mother's life, who would ahve otherwise died, is spared. That's categorically self defense.

That's not what's being discussed here. What's being discussd here is whether scripture permits abortion in cases such as ectopic pregnancy. Scripture permits self defense. Terminating an ectopic pregnancy is self defense. It is therefore scripturally permitted. Unless you don't believe that scripture permits killing in self defense.

And like I said, it appears that more bb members concur with that than do not. It shoudl be noted that the most ardent opposers of abortion here concur with termination of an ectopic pregnancy to be self defense.

Big snotty words aside, I have given you a biblical example of a Godly woman who died giving birth to a son. You cannot provide a contrary biblical position, because there is none. This has nothing to do with self-defense, and I am confused why you would keep saying it.

And until you post a poll backing up your position, and get more than 10 or 15 participants, you are merely putting words in people's mouths.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

And praise God for selfless Godly women, like the grandmother I never met.

 

[carpro]

"Ectopic pregnancies" are not normal pregnancies and do not require an "abortion" as we know it.

I believe "ectopic pregnancy" is a phenomena usual brought up by the pro abortion crowd to punch a hole in the pro life position. If that's all you have, you have nothing.

It is not a normal pregnancy, cannot be carried to term, and must be surgically removed to keep it from killing the mother as well as the fertilized egg.

God gave women a urterus to carry a child. Any fertilized egg that attaches itself somewhere else is not a true pregnancy at all.

Ironically, one of the leading causes of an ectopic pregnancy is a previous abortion.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

According to scripture, it would not have been a sin had she been spared.

On what scripture ?

 

[KenH]

Revmitchell, annsi, ccrobinson, Robert Snow, KenH, HankD, and others all concur with the position of being against abortion, but permitting it in cases where the life of the mother such as in cases of an ectopic pregnancy is permissible.

To be clear, I posted: "If I understand correctly, in an ectopic pregnancy there is no chance for the baby to survive. Therefore, ending this is not an abortion as normally used to mean ending the life of a baby who would be born if allowed to continue to develop."

I am totally opposed to any abortion - as the term is normally used in political discussions on this board. I do not see an ectopic pregnancy as falling within the use of that term.


This thread sure has wandered far, far away from the OP.

 

[Johnv]

"Ectopic pregnancies" are not normal pregnancies and do not require an "abortion" as we know it.

I agree, which is why I've stated that elective abortion is 100% wrong, and I oppose it completely. Terminating an ectopic pregnancy, though, isn't elective, and is therefore permissible, since it's self sefense of the mother's life.

Ironically, one of the leading causes of an ectopic pregnancy is a previous abortion.

That's debatable, but it is a contributing factor. The most common contributors to ectopic pregnancies are smoking, followed by pelvic infections. But for most ectopic pregnancies, there was no prior indicator (in other words, the mother didn't smoke, drink, have infections, or terminate a previous pregnancy).

On what scripture ?

It's self defense. I've already provided scriptural support for self defense.

I am totally opposed to any abortion - as the term is normally used in political discussions on this board. I do not see an ectopic pregnancy as falling within the use of that term.

I agree completely. I fail to see why Bro. Curtis has a problem with that position.

 

[carpro]

I agree, which is why I've stated that elective abortion is 100% wrong, and I oppose it completely. Terminating an ectopic pregnancy, though, isn't elective, and is therefore permissible, since it's self sefense of the mother's life.

Since you agree that it is not a normal pregnancy at all, I believe you are being intellectually dishonest to use it to make your argument.

There are other real problem pregnancies that actually do endanger the the life of the mother. Why don't you use one of those as your example? Could it be because the outcome is not as reliable as your chosen example?

Do you have a real example of a pregnancy that is not "elective" but 100 % necessary to save the mother?

 

[Johnv]

Big snotty words aside, I have given you a biblical example of a Godly woman who died giving birth to a son. You cannot provide a contrary biblical position, because there is none. This has nothing to do with self-defense, and I am confused why you would keep saying it.

No, you've given biblical examples of where women died and where their babies lived. While noble, this doesn't dictate a requirment of expectant mothers to knowingly die in the pregnancy process. It permits it, of course, but does nto reqquire it.

And until you post a poll backing up your position, and get more than 10 or 15 participants, you are merely putting words in people's mouths.

Okay, here goes:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=63002