Hole poked in "red light camera" silliness

In seattle on 30 mph streets the lights have a 3 second amber.

 

Red light cameras are the way things are gonna be. Helps reduce accidents and that is a pretty hard and fast fact.

Though I wouldn't be sad if some civic disobedience led one to use them for long range rifle practice.

 

Prove it.




I really wish that this were true.
The camera's do not prevent accidents or injury and death: They only increase the driver's anxiety that he must stop before the light turns red and he gets ticketed. They are primarily a revenue catcher.

 

So you say, but I don't believe you. I have set at intersection after intersection and watched drivers run red lights. I hope they all get tickets. Camera or not, don't run red lights and you won't get a ticket.

 

On a 30 MPH streets with 2 lanes in each directions, how many seconds warning do you need to decide if you should stop or continue through the intersection?

 

Several other tricks include....
When approaching a signaled intersection on a US hwy in rural or sparsely populated or pop-up commercial zones... don't assume all lights are tripped by entering traffic..... Observing the light from afar... consider if the green is a 'stale' green, then it is likely to turn yellow to red on approach. ....Follow Salty's advice (see above).

If you are approaching a light controlled intersection and traffic is following too close behind you.... and may be watching you instead of the signals... hence they are following you.... don't assume that they will have time to stop if you wait to the last minute. If they are too close, you can't run fast enough to keep them off your tail...... but you can slow down early to give them time to respond earlier if you find you have to stop ....instead of encouraging a meeting greeting into your back seat. The only margin you have control of is the margin of safety infront: If a driver properly times his stops.... provided the yellow light gives the right amount of caution for a safe and proper stop.... one can slow to time their stop short of the stop line.... which is for the Bumper of the vehicle.... not the front wheels.... in which case, the driver of the first car stopping has some lee way to roll forward to give up his own safety marging to a late stopper behind him, preventing or reducing a rear end collision.... without having to enter the cross walk or the busy intersection.

However.... In some studies.... done by consumer safety studies independent of the industry camera sponsors and marketing..... have shown significant results disputing .... the cameras MAY reduce the number of collisions within intersections.... which typically are high casualty/death type collisions, when they do occur, BUT if adjustments aren't made to the yellow lights to give proper warning for traffic and speed to make safe stops without emergency type braking or sudden stops.... then the increase in rear end accidents DO INCREASE.... and many result in serious casualties and fatalities... even to persons wearing proper restraints.

A person who gets a ticket for a camera spotted red light run.... does not get immediate notification so that he can challenge it: The automatic assumption is that it is a totally objective citation.... and that there are no mechanical or technological malfunctions or unjust settings of timing.... and guilt is automatically assumed. When he gets notification weeks or even months later... it is far too long for him to know or recreate the situation or present a reasonable defense.

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that the persons who habitually run yellow/red lights are playing a very dangerous game of chicken with their lives and others... and don't even belong behind the controls of a WMD on the HWY. They need to be stopped! Period! But many or most of these same drivers already have other bad habits such as tail gaiting, aggressive driving, weaving between lanes to get the best or forward most position, failure to signal lane changes or turns, and failure to acknowledge the courteous yielding of room to other drivers signaling intentions or needs to merge or enter lanes: In short... if all rules of the road were enforced more evenly.... these would come under sufficient scrutiny because of their build up of violations and infractions that their license could be flagged for more serious consequences (various levels of limitations or suspensions) or remedial driver training programs.

While many states allow automatic renewals of drivers licenses for periods of safe driving without tickets or citations.... with minor proficiencies such as eye exam required...... most states are now keeping a history of all citations and accidents on a driver's record.... and the laws between the states are even allowing these records to transfer with the individual when he moves from one state to another. One may not even know this until or unless he applies for a CDL or is employed in a driving position by a company responsible for insuring him on their records.

 

How exactly does a person confront his accuser in court, if his accuser is a sensor activated camera? How do you know it didn't just malfunction and snap a picture? Take someone's word for it?

A pretty hard and fast fact?

When I was a police officer about 25 years ago, we were told it was "impossible" for the traffic lights to show "green" in opposite directions.

One day I came upon an accident at a major intersection where the lights were green in all directions at the same time. Not flashing, not cycling... just green in all directions.

One of the people involved in the accident said to me, "I hope you see the same thing I see".

What if the lights had cycled back to normal function by the time I arrived? The guy would have been given a ticket for running a red light, gone to court to hear a city employee say it was impossible for the lights to be green in all directions, and then been found guilty and paid a big fine.

I'm not ready for machines to run our lives. Let a cop catch them, or have a private citizen file a complaint. Let's not turn our lives over to machines.

peace to youraying:

 

A couple of weeks ago, I ran a red light trying to avoid a rear-end collision. The party behind me visited and called my employer (I am a delivery driver) to report me for running a red light! He was an off-duty military policeman, and therefore had no authority to ticket me. When my supervisor heard my side of the story, he basically told me to "be careful" and dropped the matter. The district manager (who got the call-in report) told me the same, and dropped the matter, too.

Had there been a red light camera at the intersection, I would probably have been ticketed because of a tailgater! And the tailgater would never have been caught on the camera. AND my job would have been in jeopardy!

Don't run the lights, and don't get a ticket, but get into a collision, in which the tailgater gets a ticket. Run the light because of a tailgater, and get a ticket, and lose your job. I need my job. Guess which option I will choose in the future!

And to think that this same tailgater is the one who called to report me! Some people just plain shouldn't have a driver license! Yep, even a military policeman! Personally, I think he was just mad because he didn't get through the intersection himself!

Bill :godisgood:

 

Are you saying that if someone rear-ended you, which would make the accident their fault, you would lose your job?

 

No, Robert.

Option 1 is I get rear-ended and the other party gets the ticket. Option 2 is I run the light, get a ticket, and lose my job.

Which is better? To get rear-ended and probably injured, or to get a ticket and get fired? My choice? I need the job! At my age, I would most likely do better (in most cases) getting injured by being rear-ended, than to have to find another job. HOWEVER, see the last paragraph below.

By the way, as a professional driver, I am aware that hundreds of decisions like this one must be made by every driver every day. I am also aware that many less-than-honest drivers are looking for a company vehicle, to try to have a collision with. Their logic is that most companies would rather make a settlement then go to court. I am dodging these drivers MUCH more than most people would like to know.

I also realize that many drivers do not allow sufficient space between vehicles when driving. In the real-life case I described, the driver behind me was not allowing sufficient space to stop. He WOULD have plowed into my truck if I had stopped. His large heavy-duty pickup would have demolished my small company pickup. Major injury, or possible ticket for running a light? Your answer is?


Bill :godisgood:

 

Bill me!!! Collecting is another question....

To stop or not to stop. That's easy. I ask myself, "Self, if you hit the brakes will you spill your coffee?" I hate sloshing coffee all over the dash.

 

Salty et al., I read a study on why people seem to not notice slower traffic in front of them as they approach..... which is materially related to rear end collisions:
It concluded that essentially, most people are unable to recognize a significant slowing of traffic in front.... even when seeing brake lights UNTIL the traffic in front has slowed by 8-10 miles or more BELOW the speed they are going: It is a perceptual thing which has to do with the human eye and the way it registers points and judges distance. Of course, if one adds in inattenttion or distraction to the mix.... which is not uncommon.... it does get worse.

This is all the more reason for people to slow down and keep that safety margin in front while being aware of how the driver behind is responding to distance: Pile ups on roadways and at intersections don't occur because drivers were maintaining their distance.... They occur because someone was foolish enough to believe they were safe after stopping and creeping forward upon the bumper of the car in front, thus closing the gap, then some fool comes along and rear ends them into the vehicle in front.... which may rear end the vehicle in front of them.... and so things happen.

As a professional driver (CDL, big rig) as well as a 'seasoned' middle age safe driver.... I've learned to that 3 second rule applies everywhere .....even in the 'bumper to bumper' traffic like on the beltline of Atlanta or Washington DC. with multilanes: (Forget NY city... its another animal.) Sure people will take advantage of YOUR 'safety zone' and jump in or across lanes.... but it is amazing how a few deep breaths and relaxing instead of getting 'the rush' mentalitly HELPS to keep one more alert and responsive to the changing and stop and go situation around them, rather than that gut tightening feeling of anxiety in that situation.... It usually only last briefly til one passes the bottleneck which caused it and things flow smoothly again. Also, a good driver doesn't just watch the car in front and do everything he does: A good driver watches... keeps his eyes shifting observing the whole picture in front and routine checks of sides and back: He might mentally do the silent 3 second count.... but he is also observant of cues in the environment that gaps are closing such as the broken lines in the road... other vehicles passing a slowing vehicle, etc.. One thing I try never to do..... once stopped, don't lift my foot from the brake pedal (except to quickly flash the driver behind) until ready to roll again. For some drivers.... its that brake light which they notice first that the vehicle in front is stopped or slowing.

 

>How exactly does a person confront his accuser in court,

It has been almost impossible since most of the traffic code has been "decriminalized." And if you did, since the required standard of guilt is no longer "beyond reasonable doubt," but the preponderance of evidence, unless the judge thinks the police officer or the camera is lying, you will be found guilty.

Drive a junker - get rear ended by a newer car, a commercial veh, or government veh, get a new car.