Solution to overpaid teachers

[David Lamb]

It's commonly called "merit pay" and I didn't dream it up.

Good teachers should be compensated better than poor teachers.

Good work is normally compensated better than poor work...

Well it is outside of the union world anyway.

I would agree that good teachers should be compensated better than poor teachers, but how is a teacher's "goodness" decided? By how much progress their pupils make?

But that's no good as a measurement, because such progress will depend on a lot of things besides the teacher's competancy.

For example, parental encouragement. Child A's parents say, "School's a load of rubbish. It never did me any good!" They badmouth the teaching staff, make no attempt to encourage their child to do their homework, and place no importance on regular attendance. In the same class, under the same teacher(s) is Child B, whose parents encourage, and as far as possible, help him in his schooling. Except when he is unwell, they make sure he attends school. The "results" seen in child A are low, and those in Child B higher. Why? Because Child B has a better teacher? No, because A & B are in the same class.

Then there is the fact that human beings are not machines or clones. Each one has differing abilities. Child C always tries her best at school, but her level of understanding is such that she is always behind what would normally be expected from a child of her age. Child D is in the same class, but she finds everything at school easy, and progresses in leaps and bounds. Again, not because she has a better teacher.

Being a teacher is not like being a car manufacturer or a baker; you can't just look at the end product (as you can with cars and loaves of bread) and say, "This teacher is better than that one! Look at the quality of the pupils that leave her class!"

 

[billwald]

High school students should be physically separated into college level facilities with entry based strictly on grades, test scores, and teacher recommendations and general education schools for most everyone else.

Children who will never be able to live independently because of mental insufficiency or who are so dangerous that the school must pay a guard to protect the teacher and other students should not be in the public school system. These children can cost the district an extra $50K to $150K per child.

 

[rbell]

Children who will never be able to live independently because of mental insufficiency or who are so dangerous that the school must pay a guard to protect the teacher and other students should not be in the public school system. These children can cost the district an extra $50K to $150K per child.

Agreed. These kids should immediately become Democratic operatives, or union bosses, where their "gifts" are best-used.

 

[Gina B]

High school students should be physically separated into college level facilities with entry based strictly on grades, test scores, and teacher recommendations and general education schools for most everyone else.

Children who will never be able to live independently because of mental insufficiency or who are so dangerous that the school must pay a guard to protect the teacher and other students should not be in the public school system. These children can cost the district an extra $50K to $150K per child.

Sounds like you may be familiar with the basic concept France has in place concerning levels and placement of students. The first paragraph of your post sounds good to me!

I can't agree with denying education to those who will not be able to live on their own. They may require a non-traditional education adjusted to their needs, but why on earth would we not provide that in a public education setting? That's what education is. Teaching people to prepare them for life.

I've seen a number of people carry the ill-conceived notion that those who cannot live on their own eventually aren't contributing to society and therefore we shouldn't bother spending public time and money on them because it isn't cost-efficient. I certainly hope that isn't what you're saying because that's a cold attitude towards those that depend on others. If it's not, please help me understand what you mean.

 

[targus]

High school students should be physically separated into college level facilities with entry based strictly on grades, test scores, and teacher recommendations and general education schools for most everyone else.

I am sure that your owners would agree with this sort of arrangement - especially since it would have the added bonus of their children not being exposed to your worker class kids. :laugh:

 

[billwald]

I have no problem with and am pleased that we have sheltered workshops for people with limited abilities.

Years ago The Wife had a job as a teacher's aide. One of her assignments was to sit with (babysit) a severely mentally disabled child who would probably have to be hand fed all his life and didn't have the mental capacity to learn ANYTHING. He had less mental power than Benny The Dog. Kids like that should not be dumped on the school system.

 

[rbell]

I have no problem with and am pleased that we have sheltered workshops for people with limited abilities.

Yeah, I'm glad we have a Congress as well.

 

[David Lamb]

High school students should be physically separated into college level facilities with entry based strictly on grades, test scores, and teacher recommendations and general education schools for most everyone else.

Children who will never be able to live independently because of mental insufficiency or who are so dangerous that the school must pay a guard to protect the teacher and other students should not be in the public school system. These children can cost the district an extra $50K to $150K per child.

Before I write a possibly needless reply, could you tell me, Bill, if your message was in response to my post 23 on this thread? Thanks!

 

[menageriekeeper]

A couple of things that jumped out:

Free lunches: The reason for the disparity between elementary rates of free lunchers versus high school rates isn't the qualifying status of the families. MOST of the families in our area who qualified in elementary school still qualify when their kids reach high school. The difference is middle school.

In middle school kids on free lunches are teased unmercifully about being "poor", well they are teased for any difference not just this one, middle school is a zoo. However, being on free lunches is one thing the kid can control. By the time they reach high school they'd rather starve than admit their family can't afford to feed them. I regularly provide my godson with lunch money so he can avoid the stigma.

Second thing: Gifted, special ed and violent children

I agree with Bill to a certain extent on this one. The public school system is trying to be all to every student but one teacher can't possibly handle the challenges that result from having a classroom full of children who range the spectrum. You try handling a mainstreaming DS child or two along with 17 "normal" children, a couple who had rather spit on you as look at you and two or three that can learn an accelerated pace. How does one choose where to spend the time? How is it possible to give each child the education that is right for him/her as an individual.

That is why the education system came up with the term "educational benefit"! As long at the majority (the 17 "normal") are making definable progress the other 7 or so, don't have too! It can be shown that all are recieving "educational benefit" even if the DS students are just sitting there coloring all day and violent student is quiet (or sitting in alternative school doing busy work) and the advanced students have access to plenty of reading material. Educational benefit can mean anything the school or district wants it to mean and they can apply it at will to any individual child in their school or system!

This isn't a teacher problem or a salary problem. The problem is the school systems in trying to give each child an "equal" education in order to divest itself from ideas of segregation has lowered the standard of education for everyone. There are good reasons for separating students into groups by ability. But no one will do that, because someone might complain that their child wasn't given an education "equal" to that of someone else, not caring that the first child wasn't capable of learning in the same manner. We are a litigious, entitled to "my rights and yours too" society.

 

[luke1616]

Seems like everything in life for success is based on education. I know that sounds like a silly statement, but in light of one little scripture it rings true to me. "The Greeks seek knowledge...." something like that. The apostle Paul counted all things dung except Christ, who gives all wisdom. Saying all of that, in my opinion, schools should get rid of the extras. Music, sports, theater etc does nothing for a persons basic ability to read, write, and do fundamental math. I know it's crazy and we can make a case of the benefits of sports and music all day long, but it's all sentimental and has no value for getting a basic job. Indiana is plagued with the extras and several school corporations have decided against further funding of sports and music programs. The option is if you want to play, each player can pay for it. I say pay the best teachers well. The others will leave if they cannot compete. If you don't pay by results, as is the norm, then a union looks quite attractive to make more money. I would further stop forcing kids to learn things they have no interest in. It's plain stupid to do that. Forcing a kid to learn biology when he knows he wants to be a machinist is plain dumb. At the 8th grade level, those who want more will be sent to a college prep type school. Those who do not will go to a blue collar type school. Those who drop out, drop out. Give the dropouts an option. If a kid drops out with two years to go, they will have two years of schooling available for free later in life, like a credit. This will free up money that should go to properly placed teachers and students, and lesson the tax burden, in my opinion.

 

[Gina B]

I WISH they'd just sit there and color. LOL That would be a dream. On the other hand, even teens like crayons and paper so maybe it would work to offer them. LOL Might be worth a shot...or get someone shot, depending on the student and if the student is armed and violent. :tonofbricks:

 

[mandym]

I say put God and the Bible back in the schools. 1963 is the year schools started the downward trend. It is also the year God was kicked out.

 

[Gina B]

It is also the year God was kicked out.

Did He go though?

 

[luke1616]

I say put God and the Bible back in the schools. 1963 is the year schools started the downward trend. It is also the year God was kicked out.

That's the whole thing. When schools began in America, it was for the purpose of reading the bible. And to learn simple math to add up how much grain you produced et. Pretty simple and it worked. Over 90% of this country was farmers. Now it's less than 3%. It should still be simple and bible based for those of us that believe.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I say put God and the Bible back in the schools. 1963 is the year schools started the downward trend. It is also the year God was kicked out.

The Supreme Court decision was a correct decision saying that the New York Board of Regents could not write a prayer and force everyone to recite that prayer. It also meant that no one, no organization could write a prayer and force everyone in a public school to recite that prayer.

 

[carpro]

Where else than in a teachers union - or government - is a 34% success rate rewarded with above average pay and benefits?

American League designated hitters. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[JPPT1974]

Never heard of a teacher getting overpaid. But teachers that were "off" in the summer. Try to find other jobs. As I worked with one at a market at the time.

 

[rbell]

The Supreme Court decision was a correct decision saying that the New York Board of Regents could not write a prayer and force everyone to recite that prayer. It also meant that no one, no organization could write a prayer and force everyone in a public school to recite that prayer.

But we've all seen that the decision has been taken and used in a myrad of discriminatory actions against Christian students. The camel's nose is under the tent.

It leads us to situations such as one I'm currently trying to help work out: You end up with a Christian club that is not allowed to meet, even though it is student-led and meets all the legal criteria. (Meanwhile, the same school allows a "gay-lesbian student alliance" to meet...and they have to jump through far fewer hoops).

 

[Gina B]

"Ms. B, did you remember to have the students fill out the booklet with only #2 pencils?"

"Why no, I was too busy trying to trade all their sharpened wood pencils with mechanical ones."

"What on earth for?"

"Because I'm trying to keep people from stabbing each other and such."

THIS is why I don't believe in results-based pay for high school teachers. This isn't some uncommon occurrence. In the schools out here, teachers fight on a regular basis just to keep order in the classroom and prevent these situations from escalating. Getting security to your classroom may be iffy because they may be too busy dealing with another situation elsewhere on campus.


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