...and your house...

[menageriekeeper]

In Acts 16 Paul tells the deeper of the prison that he will be saved "and all thy house" (KJV) and later in the passage goes on to describe the keeper being baptised and "all his". (there are other similar passages)

Did the early Church believe that when the head of the house choose Christ that he choose Christ for all of his household?

Did these sorts of descriptions lead to the belief of some that "since mama was Christian I am too"?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I do not understand your question....sorry

 

[Scarlett O.]

Look at the surrounding text and I think you will find your answer.

[29] The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. [30] He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” [31] They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” [33] Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. [33] That hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his household were baptized. [34] The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole household.

To me, this doesn't say that it was the jailer's belief that saved his family. Paul is telling the jailer what will save both him and his household - which is belief. An individual belief.

And that's what verses 33-34 say. It says that Paul preached to the jailer and his whole household and each one of them came to believe in God. Each person in that house heard the same gospel.

It was that gospel that saved the individual household members, not the jailer's belief.

 

[freeatlast]

In Acts 16 Paul tells the deeper of the prison that he will be saved "and all thy house" (KJV) and later in the passage goes on to describe the keeper being baptised and "all his". (there are other similar passages)

Did the early Church believe that when the head of the house choose Christ that he choose Christ for all of his household?

Did these sorts of descriptions lead to the belief of some that "since mama was Christian I am too"?

No I don't think so. While salvation is an individual choice in that time period the head of the house had a great deal of influence on everyone else. His decision would hold a great weight with everyone else so that they would naturally listen and make the same choice. Unlike today when the head (father) makes a choice each person is their own man so to speak and they do as they please which means they do not necessarily listen, mush less follow.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No I don't think so. While salvation is an individual choice in that time period the head of the house had a great deal of influence on everyone else. His decision would hold a great weight with everyone else so that they would naturally listen and make the same choice. Unlike today when the head (father) makes a choice each person is their own man so to speak and they do as they lease which means they do not necessarily listen, mush less follow.

Agreed:thumbs:

 

[menageriekeeper]

I'm not sure I know how to reword it. Ummm....

How about:

a) Was the entire family saved by the action of the head of the household(in this case the keeper of the jail) as a precipatating event, or,

b) Did each member of the household choose for themselves to accept Christ, perhaps in obedience to their husband/father/master or,

c) Is this simply a descripition that since Dad got saved the entire household became known by the name "Christain" even though one or more members of the house didn't believe in Christ though they may have been baptised because they thought they had no other choice (because of the patriachal culture of the time)?

And in the case of choice b, was following Christ because of the desire to follow Dad, actually sufficient unto the salvation of the individual?

Does that help?

 

[Allan]

No I don't think so. While salvation is an individual choice in that time period the head of the house had a great deal of influence on everyone else. His decision would hold a great weight with everyone else so that they would naturally listen and make the same choice. Unlike today when the head (father) makes a choice each person is their own man so to speak and they do as they lease which means they do not necessarily listen, mush less follow.

Regarding the bold..
Maybe I misunderstood you but is seems you are saying that since the father will chose, the rest of the family will follow his example. If so this is not true.
Paul was not saying, if you believe then the rest of your house will follow your example. That is not faith nor, according to scripture, would they be saved by following their fathers choice. It was individual regarding acceptance of the truth, yet on the one point I DO agree with you. The head or Father's opinion DID hold great weight and gave those of his house pause to listen.

Scarlett O - I believe your answer was contextually and scripturally accurate. Paul's point was that the gospel can save not only him but his whole household, and we see that was his point as scripture spells out what happened at the Jailers house.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm not sure I know how to reword it. Ummm....

How about:

a) Was the entire family saved by the action of the head of the household(in this case the keeper of the jail) as a precipatating event, or,

b) Did each member of the household choose for themselves to accept Christ, perhaps in obedience to their husband/father/master or,

c) Is this simply a descripition that since Dad got saved the entire household became known by the name "Christain" even though one or more members of the house didn't believe in Christ though they may have been baptised because they thought they had no other choice (because of the patriachal culture of the time)?

And in the case of choice b, was following Christ because of the desire to follow Dad, actually sufficient unto the salvation of the individual?

Does that help?

Yes & No

I would seriously answer no to each point. Everyone is an individual & they all do their own thing. And thank god because I wasnt anyone they should have patterned themselves after.

 

[revmwc]

I will not back this up with scripture because it is simply how I see it and who said it.
Since Paul said it I believe God revealed to him that all would receive Christ. Remember the ship wreck God the Holy Spirit revealed to Paul the danger and peril they would encounter if the ship left port. He told the captain and the captain spoke with the ship master. They both felt compelled to depart and we know the story the ship wreck occured as Paul had been shown. Since he was an apostle and God revealed things to him was just that Paul had been shown by God that these would all be saved?
Just a question.

 

[freeatlast]

I'm not sure I know how to reword it. Ummm....

How about:

a) Was the entire family saved by the action of the head of the household(in this case the keeper of the jail) as a precipatating event, or,

b) Did each member of the household choose for themselves to accept Christ, perhaps in obedience to their husband/father/master or,

c) Is this simply a descripition that since Dad got saved the entire household became known by the name "Christain" even though one or more members of the house didn't believe in Christ though they may have been baptised because they thought they had no other choice (because of the patriachal culture of the time)?

And in the case of choice b, was following Christ because of the desire to follow Dad, actually sufficient unto the salvation of the individual?

Does that help?

A) no!

B) No!

C) No!

They got saved because they believed, but their belief was due to the fact that the father was greatly respected and they listened. None the less each one of the family members had to come to their own dicission of the truth of the cross. The fathers infleunce of their mind ended at their heart and from there God had to work within their willingness to accept.

 

[freeatlast]

Regarding the bold..
Maybe I misunderstood you but is seems you are saying that since the father will chose, the rest of the family will follow his example. If so this is not true.
Paul was not saying, if you believe then the rest of your house will follow your example. That is not faith nor, according to scripture, would they be saved by following their fathers choice. It was individual regarding acceptance of the truth, yet on the one point I DO agree with you. The head or Father's opinion DID hold great weight and gave those of his house pause to listen.

Scarlett O - I believe your answer was contextually and scripturally accurate. Paul's point was that the gospel can save not only him but his whole household, and we see that was his point as scripture spells out what happened at the Jailers house.

Sorry if I was not clear. I mean that they will listen because of his position, but they still have to decide if they will follow. Not that they have to follow because of his position.

 

[Iconoclast]

In Acts 16 Paul tells the deeper of the prison that he will be saved "and all thy house" (KJV) and later in the passage goes on to describe the keeper being baptised and "all his". (there are other similar passages)

Did the early Church believe that when the head of the house choose Christ that he choose Christ for all of his household?

Did these sorts of descriptions lead to the belief of some that "since mama was Christian I am too"?

Allan has posted correctly ...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, and your household...[if they also believe], is implied in the statement. In two of the other household accounts it says they all believed.

In the OT only the males had the sign of the covenant.Presbyterians see in this a principle of household inclusion in what they refer to as the outward administration of the covenant of grace.
In other words....all males were given the sign of the covenant.The sign did not save,but pointed to what it signified....Christ.
That is why padeos baptize [or rather sprinkle] infants today.They believe NT baptism takes the place of the OT sign.
God many times in scripture is pleased to work in households,1 cor7:14, the children being expopsed to the means of grace.That being said there is no guarantee that each child will "have root in himself".

 

[menageriekeeper]

In the OT only the males had the sign of the covenant.Presbyterians see in this a principle of household inclusion in what they refer to as the outward administration of the covenant of grace.
In other words....all males were given the sign of the covenant.The sign did not save,but pointed to what it signified....Christ.
That is why padeos baptize [or rather sprinkle] infants today.They believe NT baptism takes the place of the OT sign.
God many times in scripture is pleased to work in households,1 cor7:14, the children being expopsed to the means of grace.That being said there is no guarantee that each child will "have root in himself".

Yes! This is what I was talking about and couldn't find the words to describe it.

So, with my equally unclear self, can we talk about why the males only were given a physical sign, how that sign (circumcision) related to the acceptance of the Covenant (or as Iconoclast has said pointed to the Savior) and how that male only acceptance of the Covenant on behalf of their families (?) relates to the NT scriptures I quoted in the OP?

And while we are at it, can we also discuss the implications of 1 Cor 7:14 since Iconoclast brought it up?

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes! This is what I was talking about and couldn't find the words to describe it.

So, with my equally unclear self, can we talk about why the males only were given a physical sign, how that sign (circumcision) related to the acceptance of the Covenant (or as Iconoclast has said pointed to the Savior) and how that male only acceptance of the Covenant on behalf of their families (?) relates to the NT scriptures I quoted in the OP?

And while we are at it, can we also discuss the implications of 1 Cor 7:14 since Iconoclast brought it up?

mk,
To be honest sometimes it seems as if solid presbyterians are ahead of baptists in this area of bible study.I have learned more from padeos on this topic than from baptists.
I see a few reasons for this;
1] padeos are given to covenant theology, they study the scriptures looking to glean everything about Gods covenant, how it effects us, and our families.
Baptists by and large in our day, have little or no knowledge of the covenants, which are primary if we are going to come to truth on many areas of teaching .

2] God has revealed a pattern in scripture where he deals with families,and there are promises that are given to those who are covenant keepers.There were also promises of judgement to covenant breakers!

7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

9And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 13He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant

In the NT we are grafted into the covenant promises...we have to give an account for how we view our inclusion in the covenant.

In other words....is it the same as it was in the OT?
what has changed?
is anything different?
can we break the covenant?
Is the new covenant the same as the old?
if it is different,in what way is it different?
How do we enter the covenant now?
the same as OT saints or different?
Are our children included in the covenant as the OT children were?
Are our children excluded from the covenant?
Is there an external and ,internal administration of the covenant now?
what does it mean that the children of a believing parent are holy, or the unsaved spouse are in 1 cor 7:14

These are questions we could be studying instead of some of the questions that are being posted,,,,many of the other threads would be solved by studying the covenants of God.

 

[menageriekeeper]

In the NT we are grafted into the covenant promises...we have to give an account for how we view our inclusion in the covenant.

In other words....is it the same as it was in the OT?
what has changed?
is anything different?
can we break the covenant?
Is the new covenant the same as the old?
if it is different,in what way is it different?
How do we enter the covenant now?
the same as OT saints or different?
Are our children included in the covenant as the OT children were?
Are our children excluded from the covenant?
Is there an external and ,internal administration of the covenant now?
what does it mean that the children of a believing parent are holy, or the unsaved spouse are in 1 cor 7:14

These are questions we could be studying instead of some of the questions that are being posted,,,,many of the other threads would be solved by studying the covenants of God.

Pick your fav and give your opinion. We can start a new thread if you like or simply hijack this one. I know very little really about OT covenant theology and much less on how it applies to the NT and its always good to learn something new.

 

[Iconoclast]

MK,
Studying the covenants is a life long study in my opinion. I would first recommend that one gets an overview of Biblical covenants.

It takes alot of reading. Some of the teaching on this topic is nuanced,so it requires patience . Sometimes you read through alot of teaching and have to sift out the truth from the extra teaching, or some of the different ideas that are offered.

I am constantly studying this topic nowadays. On this trip out I am reading sermons on Jn 17....and Romans 6 to see what they have to say about this.

When you study this ,keep in mind that the word covenant is not always used when the covenant is being discussed.

There are certain words and terms associated with this topic that you become familiar with.

One definition I came across of a biblical Covenant is;
God's self imposed promise for the reconciliation of sinners to Himself.

Here are a few terms to get to know;

Covenant of Redemption
Covenant of Grace
Old Covenant
New Covenant
Noahic Covenant
Abrahamic Covenant
Mosaic Covenant
Davidic Covenant
Everlasting Covenant

Have you heard the terms before? From the pulpit or in bible study?
Here are some verses that I find interesting on this topic;

14The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

17But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

18To such as keep his covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them.

19The LORD hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.

20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

http://www.preceptaustin.org/covenant_in_the_bible.htm

here is a sample from that site;

Lawrence Richards writes,

The notion of a covenant is unfamiliar today. But the concept of covenant is utterly basic to our understanding of Scripture. In Old Testament times this complex concept was the foundation of social order and social relations, and it was particularly the foundation for an understanding of humanity's relationship with God.

2) Everything God Does is Based on Covenant

You will come to understand that all God's interactions with mankind are based on covenant. You will to discover a promise that has been there all the time, hidden in vague shadows and blurred by the veil of ignorance.

3) Better Understanding of the New Covenant

You will obtain a deeper appreciation of the New Covenant with Jesus Christ and what has take place in your life when you entered into His New Covenant. You will come to know that because of His covenant of grace you can be assured that you will always be the "beloved of God" in Christ Jesus Whose hands eternally bear the marks of covenant.

4) Assurance, Freedom, Power

An understanding of Covenant will give you assurance of who you are in Jesus Christ and conversely of Whose you are in Him. It will also give you freedom from what may have bound you in the past or may be binding you right now, and awaken in you the power that is yours in Christ Jesus, power based on your New Covenant life in Christ.

5) An Attitude of Gratitude

An understanding of God's Covenants will give you a deep sense of gratitude for what God has accomplished for you in sending His Son to "cut" covenant.

6) Accountability and responsibility

You will have a greater understanding of your responsibility as a result of having entered the New Covenant as you begin to see your role in the covenant relationship with Christ.

7) Understand missing piece of the puzzle

You will understand what it means to be in covenant with God in Jesus Christ, and see as you have never seen before that truly covenant is "the missing piece of the puzzle". You will begin to see how the entire word of God fits together as you grow in your understanding of the Abrahamic covenant, the old covenant (Mosaic, "the Law"), and the New Covenant.

8) You will never be the same again

Many have testified that as a result of beginning to truly understand the meaning of covenant their spiritual life has undergone a major transformation. This can also be your testimony if you persevere and diligently pursue studying the Biblical truths about covenant.

><>><>><>

Spurgeon adds that

Elohim, as the Creator and Preserver, takes care of living things to preserve them; but the Lord, even Jehovah, the covenanting God, interposes in great mercy to protect his chosen servant. It was Jehovah Who entered into solemn league and covenant with His servant Noah that he would preserve him in the ark, and float him into the new world in it; and as Jehovah the covenanting One He shut him in. There is no security like that which is given us by the covenant of grace. The hand which was lifted to swear our safety has also been outstretched to effect it. The everlasting covenant ordered in all things and sure guarantees salvation to all who are represented by the great Head and Surety of that covenant, even our Lord Jesus. Love and power cooperate with faithfulness and truth to keep the chosen from all danger. Dwell much upon the Covenant, and note the immutable pledges by which it is secured and the immortal principles upon which it is founded. Try to suck out the delicious sweetness which is to be found in the hive of the Covenant; for if you are an advanced child of God no form of truth can be more nourishing or refreshing to your mind. The doctrines which spring out of the covenant are peculiarly comforting to believing minds (e.g., see Exchange of Robes, Exchange of Armor and Belts, Oneness of Covenant, etc). The promises of God are yea and amen in Christ Jesus, and can never fail nor change, since the covenant standeth fast for ever and ever. Its tenure is free and sovereign grace, and it cannot be disannulled. Here is a line of it, “I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.” With such a promise doth Jehovah shut us in with Christ Jesus in matchless kindness and unspeakable love (See full sermon Shut in or Shut Out)

><> ><> ><>

 

[Iconoclast]

MK,

Scroll all the way down on this site and you will see how much information,verses and teaching are involved.....here is another small sample

http://preceptaustin.org/covenant_in_the_bible.htm
MADE WITH
Abraham - Ge 15:7-18; 17:2-14; Lk 1:72, 73, 74, 75; Ac 3:25; Gal 3:16
Isaac - Ge 17:19,21; 26:3,4
Jacob - Ge 28:13,14; 1Chr 16:16,17
Israel - Ex 6:4; Acts 3:25
David - 2Sa 23:5; Ps 89:3,4

Renewed under the gospel -Je 31:31, 32, 33; Ro 11:27; He 8:8, 9, 10,13

Fulfilled in Christ -Lk 1:68-79

Confirmed in Christ -Galatians 3:17

Ratified by the blood of Christ -He 9:11, 12, 13, 14,16-23

Is a covenant of peace -Is 54:9,10; Ezek 34:25; 37:26

Is unalterable -Ps 89:34; Is 54:10; 59:21; Gal 3:17

Is everlasting -Ps 111:9; Is 55:3; 61:8; Ezek 16:60-63; He 13:20

All saints interested in -Ps 25:14; 89:29-37; He 8:10

The wicked have no interest in -Ep 2:12

Blessings connected with -Is 56:4-7; He 8:10, 11, 12

God is faithful to -Dt 7:9; 1Ki 8:23; Neh 1:5; Da 9:4

God is ever mindful of -Ps 105:8; 111:5; Lk 1:72

Be mindful of -1Chr 16:15

Caution against forgetting -Dt 4:23

Plead, in prayer -Ps 74:20; Je 14:21

Punishment for despising -He 10:29,30

 

[menageriekeeper]

Have you heard the terms before? From the pulpit or in bible study?

Lets see if I have the basics. This is just off the top of my head, mind you as it is way past my curfew.

Covenant of Redemption God's plan to redeem mankind though Christ's sacrifice
Covenant of Grace Results of the above
Old Covenant Promises made to Isreal on the condition of their obedience to the Law
New Covenant Promises made to mankind as a whole on the condition of their obedience to belief in Christ
Noahic Covenant "I will set my bow in the sky" Promises made to Noah upon the completion of the flood
Abrahamic Covenant "Get thee up out of thy country into a land which I shall show thee", "stars in the sky", Promises made to Abraham (and his decendents)for his obedience to God
Mosaic Covenant This encompasses the escape from Egypt and the Law given to nation Israel
Davidic Covenant Change in government styles. Not to exclude Saul, but he was merely an object lesson and David was made the example for how kings should rule in Israel and what would happen if they failed to rule as God told them.
Everlasting Covenant God's promises to the Bride of Christ

A lot of this sounds similar to dispensationalism(as I've always understood it). Can you explain the differences?

 

[Iconoclast]

Lets see if I have the basics. This is just off the top of my head, mind you as it is way past my curfew.

Covenant of Redemption God's plan to redeem mankind though Christ's sacrifice
Covenant of Grace Results of the above
Old Covenant Promises made to Isreal on the condition of their obedience to the Law
New Covenant Promises made to mankind as a whole on the condition of their obedience to belief in Christ
Noahic Covenant "I will set my bow in the sky" Promises made to Noah upon the completion of the flood
Abrahamic Covenant "Get thee up out of thy country into a land which I shall show thee", "stars in the sky", Promises made to Abraham (and his decendents)for his obedience to God
Mosaic Covenant This encompasses the escape from Egypt and the Law given to nation Israel
Davidic Covenant Change in government styles. Not to exclude Saul, but he was merely an object lesson and David was made the example for how kings should rule in Israel and what would happen if they failed to rule as God told them.
Everlasting Covenant God's promises to the Bride of Christ

A lot of this sounds similar to dispensationalism(as I've always understood it). Can you explain the differences?

Good job MK....I thought I posted a reply yesterday, but it did not post...so I will try again....lets see if we can begin to explore some of the differences:

Covenant of Redemption God's plan to redeem mankind though Christ's sacrifice

God covenants among the three Divine persons to redeem a multitude out from among fallen mankind. This covenant is made by God himself before the world was. Mankind...considered as fallen and dead in Adam....
the Father gives a multitude to the Son,and sends the Son to redeem them.
The Son comes to live a perfect and sinless life,accomplishing redemption for these children given to Him....[The elect, the sheep,the church]
The Spirit is sent by the Father and Son to apply this redemption effectually to the elect,convicting,drawing,and regenerating them...making them willing to come .
This salvation is offered to mankind after the fall of Adam ,in what is referred to as the covenant of works,in Gen 3;15..
When offered it is referred to as the covenant of grace

Noahic-
The covenant is progressively revealed by God
9And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
The covenant is God's , he makes it available to man here.

Abrahamic- The root promise....Israel first, then the nations later.

mosaic- For the theocracy.....in this portion of redemptive history the agreeement is offered externally, and the mosaic law given as a standard,the land promises were conditioned upon obedience to the covenant.
The davidic covenant- an expansion of the original promises , with some beneficial modifications;

26He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

27Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.

28My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

29His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

30If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

33Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

34My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.

35Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven.

The new covenant- fulfilled in Christ..a better covenant ,better promises.This new covenant is preached worldwide, as the children of God are to be found worldwide.

MK.....The revelation of the covenant is central in scripture..the doctrines of grace. are part and parcel of the fabric of this covenant dealing of God with the seed of Abraham.
When people attack the doctrines of grace, they are attacking the very heart of the covenant salvation available in our redeemer the Lord Jesus Christ.

Saul attacks the church...Jesus says Saul...why do you persecute me...this is covenant language, you cannot seperate Jesus from the elect sheep given to Him. This is why you see calvinists resist careless efforts of some to undermine the heart of the salvation made known to the Church.

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

 

[menageriekeeper]

MK.....The revelation of the covenant is central in scripture..the doctrines of grace. are part and parcel of the fabric of this covenant dealing of God with the seed of Abraham.
When people attack the doctrines of grace, they are attacking the very heart of the covenant salvation available in our redeemer the Lord Jesus Christ.

I think if we keep our wits and manners about us, we can have a good discussion despite our differences on DoG. Feel free to explain why/how you believe DoG relates to Covenant Theology. (honestly DoG doesn't bother me nearly as much as you might think it does)

Its good to know that we understand each other on the various covenants described in scripture.

I haven't had time to examine closely the bulk of your posts #16 and 17 or the links you gave. So I'll be back later with more comments on those.

I wonder, did you see my question on what makes Covenant Theology different from Dispensationalim?