is there REALLy per Bible An "Age of Accountibility?"

You said that the very first sin brings spiritual death is that a known or unknown sin? Secondly Paul says we were all dead, 2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Paul says "then were all dead" if not spiritually then how?

15And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again

I believe the person is covered until they come to a knowledge of sin as I showed with Adam and Eve. But I believe they are born spiritually dead and with a sin nature. Innocence not having knowledge of sin is what protects them just as it did Adam and Eve, until they had knowledge of good and evil.

Paul again reinforces this as spiritual death and an old sin nature in the very same Ephesians chapter
Ephesians 2: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

v3 By nature we are children of wrath (Old Sin Nature), v5 "we were dead in sin". We born the children of wrath and dead, Paul tells us here.

Christ avoided spiritual death and the Old sin nature because of His Father, because the earthly father passes on our inheritence and Adma sinned and brought death, Eve was decieved and doesn't pass the OSN to her children, nor would she (woman) pass on Spiritual death.

Even though all chidren are born spiritually dead and have an Old Sin Nature they are covered because they have not gained knowlege of good and evil.

 

I believe what Paul said in Romans 6 concerning when we die spiritually.

The passage you quote has Paul speaking to believers. He is speaking of us all having died in Christ. You left off a crucial part in context... "And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again."

Based on the above passage...we all died in Christ. The word "for" means "in place of"

Spiritually dead (guilty) people are saved in no other way be grace through faith. There is no special special dispensation of salvation apart from this.

Ephesians supports my view! Why did you leave off verse 1 and 2 that puts the rest in context?
1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Verse 3 was focusing on the jew who thought they were immune to God's wrath, buy it is also true that our natures are at enmity with God, hence the reason we will sin.

I agree with your conclusion, I just disagree how you arrive at it.

 

Ok left them off becuse they had already been printed but here we go:

Ephesians 2:1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;


As a believer I was dead in tresspass and sins, spirtually dead from birth with and old sin nature from my father Adam. But Christ has made me spiritually alive in Him with the Holy spirit indwelling me.

2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

All believers prior to salvation walked according the sinful worldliness we have in us in a sinful world. We were all disobedient from birth.

3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

We as believers all had our conversation in times past in the lust and desires of our flesh because of our nature (old sin Nature) even as the unbeliever does. I don;t see where you get Paul is speaking to the jews.

Nowhere in Romans 6 is spiritual death seen. It speaks more of Positional death than almost anything. We have died to the domination of the old sin nature and are alive in Christ, Positional death seperated from the domination of the Old Sin Nature and alive in Christ. Verse 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death This is the second death had we remained in our state and dided physically we would also have died the second death.

Verse 16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

The believer dies temporally from sin if we yield to the old sin nature then we are seperated from the filling of the Holy spirit which is no longer controlled by Him, we confess and are back in fellowship. If we continue to walk under the control of the Old Sin Nature then we are Operationally dead, no longer operating under the control of the Holy spirit.

No don't see Spirtual death in any of these verse in Romans 6. I'll go back and reread it but I don't see spiritual death in the passages.

 

Since everyone is conceived in iniquity, at no time is anyone not spiritually dead, separated from God, until God credits their faith in Christ as righteousness. Children too young to know their right hand from their left, children who have not done anything good or bad, face eternal punishment, separation from God from the point of conception.

However, God also punishes sinners for their volitional sins of commision and ommission, and before the age of accountablity, God's justice does not require punishment for those sins, if any. Bottom line, specific punishment for volitional sin is only appropriate for those who know their actions are ungodly.

 

Here's my view: http://osagebluestem.wordpress.com/2011/04/28/448/

 

I've always questioned the theology behind the AoA as being inconsistent. If children are not held responsible for their sins(sinful Adamic nature), then the most loving & kind thing for us to do for the lost is to not tell them about Christ. Why would we send preachers(biblical name for missionaries) to third world countries where the people have no concept of Christ if that lack of understanding is a guarantee of salvation by default? I don't claim to know how God handles the death of children & of the unborn, but I don't hold to conjecture-based theology either.

 

a hearty amen!!!

 

Well, we know that people sin when they are old enough to do things with evil intent. We know that everyone is without excuse.

Romans 1:18-20 ESV
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

All people must be told about Christ as soon as possible so that they can come to faith and be saved.

 

For ALL have sinned & fallen short of the glory of God.


ALL means ALL; doesn't it?

 

Yes...at conception-

 

Why do you write what the bible says? You may confuse our traditions?

Iconoclast, I suspect you may [EDIT - personal attacks are not allowed] please stop giving us the truth, we are content in our ignorance.

[EDIT - you are not allowed to impersonate a moderator. If you have a problem with a moderator address an Admin via PM or report the post]

 

All you have to do is study the bible, of course there is no "Age of Accountability"!! That, if you check, is simply made up lately by synergists to try to explain away the need to fully understand, then synergistically choose (Of course God has nothing to do with our salvation), but then choose.

It's typically a "Sweet" age. If they are 6-8, then well, they are still "Sweet", they can choose to be rightous or not, but then about 9-10 they become less innocent. For sure! Once 11!!!! Hell man!

How can you people be such [edit - personal attacks are not permitted]? Accuse me all you will, I will fight back and show you [edit - personal attacks are not permitted], "Age of accountability"?

First, show me in the bible where it HINTS at that. I understand David's son, but that was a elects son.

Only Reformed Theology can help this problem. If you synergism is correct, abortion is the greatest gift to God, for they all go to Heaven, but that's not what your synergism teaches, it teaches that by some miracle we all in youth have to hear the gospel, and if not we're done, forever!

That's right, a infant dies, he/she goes straight to Hell, by your own laws. However, if God dictates who is elect or not, then when a child dies "Who is it that kills, or gives life? Who makes the blind, etc".

I mean are you guys [edit - personal attacks are not permitted]? The bible is clear that who you are is FROM THE LORD, where you are born IS FROM THE LORD, who you will be IS FROM THE LORD.

[edit - personal attacks are not permitted. Address concerns about moderators in a PM to another Moderator or Admin.]

We'll see if he steps up and debate.

 

Indeed. We are all children of Adam and we all suffer the punishment for that. Children who get sick and die in infancy have certainly suffered punishment for that. Now, have they committed sins of their own making? Jesus spoke well of themand said "such is the kingdom of heaven" in reference to them, so I don't think that they have committed sins of their own doing.

As an orthodox calvinist, I can assure you that is up for debate. :laugh:

 

Allan presented a biblically based, well laid out, and sound argument in support of the concept. Like the doctrine of the Trinity, which is not specifically mentioned in scripture, there are a combination of passages which lead us to these doctrinal truths. Likewise, the doctrine of AoA is an explanation for how we believe things work according to the various passages given us, but as Allan admitted, it is not clearly spelled out for us in scripture.

It would serve your purpose better to do what Allan has done and attempt to make a well reasoned biblically based argument rather than resort to personal attacks, patronizing and dismissive comments.

Numerous passages were mentioned and yet you choose not to address them. The one you do address you dismiss with a presumption that is never stated in the text.

That is a complete misrepresentation of the view being presented. If you are going to debate try to debate the opponents actual position and not a straw-man you have created.

Debate what? Personal attacks and straw-men fallacies? No thanks.

 

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; Can I safely assume this means all er I mean everyone who has been born of woman?

That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Howbeit that not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (Afterward?) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence.

How many regardless of age in paragraph one does paragraph two presently apply to?

There is no Age of accountability. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

This is what happens when folks pull scripture out of context. The phrase "in Adam" occurs only once in all of scripture (1 Cor 15:22). What is the context of 1 Cor 15? The resurrection of our PHYSICAL bodies. Paul is not speaking of spiritual death in this chapter, read and see for yourself. Adam's personal sin is not imputed to anyone, God said the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father (Eze 18:20). However, as a result of Adam's sin the ground was cursed. This actually applies to all creation. We are born with corrupt physical bodies that begin to die quickly. Animals who cannot sin die because of this curse. Even unliving things grow old and fade away.

So, "in Adam" is speaking of this physical corruption that passed on all creation, not spiritual death. Read 1 Cor 15 carefully and you will see this.

Babies are born with corrupt physical bodies just like the rest of us, they can die, but they do not bear Adam's sin. God says repeatedly that men die (spiritually) for their OWN sin.

 

So we do bear the iniquity of Adam with our corrupt physical bodies?

 

No, we die physically as a CONSEQUENCE of Adam's sin.

If a drunk bus driver drives off a cliff killing himself and all the passengers on his bus, they die as a consequence of his sin. That does not make the passengers who are killed guilty of drunk driving.

Show me where the scriptures ever say God cursed man's moral nature. You won't find it. In fact, well after Adam the scriptures say man is made in God's image.

Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: FOR IN THE IMAGE OF GOD MADE HE MAN.

This command was made to Noah AFTER the flood and shows man retained God's image.

No, God cursed the ground in Gen 3:17. We are made of the dust of the ground.

Psa 103:13 Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him. 14 For he knoweth our FRAME; he remembereth that WE ARE DUST.

Little babies have done no sin, this is shown by Rom 9:11, yet even babies in the womb die. Animals die who cannot sin, as well as plant life. This is the CONSEQUENCE of Adam's sin.

Did God impute Adam's sin to animals? Absurd!

No, the term "in Adam" is shown only once in all the Bible in 1 Cor 15:22. This chapter is clearly dealing with the resurrection of our physical bodies.

1 Cor 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what BODY do they come?

We do bear Adam's image in our BODY.

1 Cor 15:49 And as we HAVE BORNE the image of the earthly, we SHALL also BEAR the image of the heavenly.

When we die, this eartly body will return to the dust, when we are raised again it will be a new spiritual body just like Jesus had when he arose.

So, "in Adam" is speaking of this corrupt physical body we inherited from Adam, not our moral nature.

 

I am not sure this is correct. I believe it is the resurrection of the dead. In verse 35 Paul says, But some will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

That is two questions about two topics. The dead and what kind of body. In most cases I would venture to say the body that died has long turned to dust.

v-37 1st part And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, v-38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

 

Two questions need answers in post #35