Baptism in the Spirit

[Moriah]

False! He was talking to water baptized believers that John prepared ("I baptize YOU with water...he shall baptize YOU") a PLURAL number that would be formed into His congregational body at Jerusalem. This has no application to unqualified INDIVIDUAL believers.

John baptized and preached to all that HE BAPTIZES WITH WATER BUT JESUS WILL BAPTIZE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.

If you do not have the Holy Spirit inside you, then you are not a part of the body of Christ.

NOT ALL BELEIVERS were baptized in the Spirit on Pentecost but ONLY those that were formed and assembling on Pentecost.

You do not understand. The apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit first.

Then, later, the crowd that witnessed the apostles who were baptized with the Holy Spirit asked, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

Peter told them to repent and be baptized every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE FOR FORGIVENESS OF SIN. Peter tells them “And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

False! I showed two cases in Numbers where they were filled with Spirit without any reference to speaking or prophesying.

Now you bring up Numbers! I said in the NEW TESTAMENT. I even highlighted the word ‘New Testament.’

I showed that John the Baptist was filled in the womb - no speaking on his part. I showed that Elizabeth and Mary were filled with the Spirit. All before pentecost and all before Christ baptized anyone with the Holy Sprit.

John the Baptist is considered an Old Testament Prophet. You are also speaking of Elizabeth and Mary being filled with the Holy Spirit before Jesus ascended to heaven.

Jesus is speaking directly to the members of his congregation - water baptized believers formed into one body by Christ. They met as a body in Acts 1:15-26 prior to Pentecost. This is a PLURAL "you" that Had the Holy Spirit in them as indivduals but only Christ WITH them as a church body whereas the other comforter would not dwell "WITH" them as Christ did but "IN" them as a "temple".

The Holy Spirit indwells all true believers, even to this day.

Do you know the difference between the singular temple and plural "you" of 1 Corintians 3;16 versus the singular temple and singular "you" of 1 Cor. 6:19? I think not!

Biblicist, do you believe the Holy Spirit is living inside of you?

Do you have a problem reading? You better reread that text. There was no filling or power given to them in Acts 1:4-5 as you claim. He simply promised the baptism in the Spirit "not many days hence" on Pentecost.

I was speaking about what Jesus said.

The baptism in the Spirit and filling of the Spirit are not one and the same. Go try that at the gas station and tell the attendent to baptize your car with gas!

Being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ is RECEIVING the forgiveness of sins. Being baptized with the Holy Spirit is receiving the Holy Spirit.
It is as if being immersed with water in the inside. The Bible tells us that true believers will have living water in them. I can give you scriptures if you would like.

 

[The Biblicist]

John baptized and preached to all that HE BAPTIZES WITH WATER BUT JESUS WILL BAPTIZE WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.

If you do not have the Holy Spirit inside you, then you are not a part of the body of Christ.

Another false doctrine. There is no such thing as a universal visible or invisible body of Christ.

You do not understand. The apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit first.

No they were not! Acts 1:4-5 does not say that, does not infer that, does not teach that. Acts 1:4-5 predicts that they "SHALL" be baptized "NOT MANY DAYS HENCE. He said that on the day of his ascension which was "forty" days after his resurrecton (Acts 1:1-2) and the day of Pentecost was ten days later or "not many days hence."

YOu have NO SCRIPTURE to show, to teach, to infer that the Apostles had a separate special baptism in the Spirit prior to Acts 2:1 and if you insist it is true then you are calling Christ a liar who specifically told the apostles that their baptism in the Spirit would be "not many days HENCE."

Then, later, the crowd that witnessed the apostles who were baptized with the Holy Spirit asked, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

False. Their question had nothing to do with the baptism in the Spirit but with THEIR GUILT of having rejecting and crucified Christ. That was what "cut" them to the heart. That is what they need "forgiveness of sins" about.

Now you bring up Numbers! I said in the NEW TESTAMENT. I even highlighted the word ‘New Testament.’

John the Baptist is considered an Old Testament Prophet. You are also speaking of Elizabeth and Mary being filled with the Holy Spirit before Jesus ascended to heaven.

Correct! That proves being "filled" with the Spirit is not synonymous with and never has been never will be synonomous with being Baptized in the Spirit.

Go to the gas station and ask them to baptize your car with gas and then come back and talk about your nonsense that they are one and the same.

Second, one is the work of the Holy Spirit (filling) while the other is not the work of the Holy Spirit but the work of Christ. It is Christ that baptizes in the Spirit not the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit indwells all true believers, even to this day.

He has indwelt, regenerated, sealed, filled, led, sanctified every believer in the gospel since Genesis 3 and will till the last one is saved and Christ returns. Caleb, Joshua, Moses, Daniel, David were all born again, Spirit indwelt children of God and the scriptures explicitly states the Spirit of God dwelt in them.

Being baptized with the Holy Spirit is receiving the Holy Spirit.

No such doctrine! No scripture to infer or teach such a doctrine. The baptism in the Spirit had to do with indwelling the "house of God" as a public institution of worship and now the new house of God is made up of living stones and is neither universal or invisible but the local assembly (see 1 Cor. 3:16 plural "you" singular "temple" not "we" and located at Corinth).

You simply do not know what you are talking about and you have twisted and perverted every text you have handled.

 

[Moriah]

Another false doctrine. There is no such thing as a universal visible or invisible body of Christ.

Do you understand what Jesus means when he says, “May they also be in us …” See John 17:21. I can give more scriptures if you would like.

No they were not! Acts 1:4-5 does not say that, does not infer that, does not teach that. Acts 1:4-5 predicts that they "SHALL" be baptized "NOT MANY DAYS HENCE. He said that on the day of his ascension which was "forty" days after his resurrecton (Acts 1:1-2) and the day of Pentecost was ten days later or "not many days hence."

How does what you say prove that the Apostles were not baptized first before others? Jesus tells his disciples, “I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high,”

YOu have NO SCRIPTURE to show, to teach, to infer that the Apostles had a separate special baptism in the Spirit prior to Acts 2:1 and if you insist it is true then you are calling Christ a liar who specifically told the apostles that their baptism in the Spirit would be "not many days HENCE."

I do not know what you are talking about; you are not reliable to relay what I have said, since you do not understand something said to you, you make up things. What are you talking about when you say I infer the Apostles had a separate special baptism in the Spirit prior to Acts 2:1?
Did you not just say the Apostles were not baptized with the Holy Spirit first.
The Apostles lived with the Holy Spirit before Pentecost, and the Apostles received the Holy Spirit even before Pentecost when Jesus breathed on them and told them to receive the Holy Spirit. However, they were clothed in the Holy Spirit with power when the Holy Spirit comes on them, and that was at Pentecost.
The Apostles healed people while Jesus was with them on earth during his ministry.
Now the Apostles were to wait in the city until they have been clothed with power from on high, with the Holy Spirit that the Father has promised.
The Apostles were laying the foundation now after Jesus’ ascension into heaven.

False. Their question had nothing to do with the baptism in the Spirit but with THEIR GUILT of having rejecting and crucified Christ. That was what "cut" them to the heart. That is what they need "forgiveness of sins" about.

How do you say their question had nothing to do with the baptism in the Spirit but with their guilt? Are you claiming those people already had the Spirit? If they receive the Holy Spirit first and are born again first before receiving the Holy Spirit or before being baptized in the Holy Spirit, then why would they ask what they should do? According to you, they were already saved and born again by the fact that they asked that question!
How do you say it had nothing to do with baptism in the Spirit when Peters says, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”

Correct! That proves being "filled" with the Spirit is not synonymous with and never has been never will be synonomous with being Baptized in the Spirit.

You mean except for in Acts 10:44-48! Since it is the example in Acts 10:44-48, then why do you attack me and say there is nothing in the scriptures that say what I say?

Go to the gas station and ask them to baptize your car with gas and then come back and talk about your nonsense that they are one and the same.

Your little analogy of the car and gas station is over used and insufficient.

Second, one is the work of the Holy Spirit (filling) while the other is not the work of the Holy Spirit but the work of Christ. It is Christ that baptizes in the Spirit not the Spirit.

God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One.
Again, read Acts 10:44-46.

He has indwelt, regenerated, sealed, filled, led, sanctified every believer in the gospel since Genesis 3 and will till the last one is saved and Christ returns. Caleb, Joshua, Moses, Daniel, David were all born again, Spirit indwelt children of God and the scriptures explicitly states the Spirit of God dwelt in them.

Show me scripture that says what you say.
Are you claiming the Old Testament righteous was unchanged by Jesus dying on the cross and the gospel?

No such doctrine! No scripture to infer or teach such a doctrine. The baptism in the Spirit had to do with indwelling the "house of God" as a public institution of worship and now the new house of God is made up of living stones and is neither universal or invisible but the local assembly (see 1 Cor. 3:16 plural "you" singular "temple" not "we" and located at Corinth).

The living stones are being built up in heaven. So what are you talking about?

You simply do not know what you are talking about and you have twisted and perverted every text you have handled.

Jesus saved me and gave me his Spirit at a time I was a member of a false religion. According to you, Jesus saves people and gives them the Holy Spirit when they are in a local church. I do not now belong to any denomination or any public church of worship on earth for local assembly. What you teach is falseness.

 

[The Biblicist]

According to you, Jesus saves people and gives them the Holy Spirit when they are in a local church.

It probably will do no good to tell you that you do not understand or represent correctly what I believe as your above statement is completely false.

I will spell it out for you in little words so that you will not pervert my position again (lol).

1. I believe that individuals are personally regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit of God whether they were circumcised or uncirumcised before Pentecost or whether they were baptized or unbaptized after Pentecost and that membership in any church has nothing to do with individual indwelling by the Spirit of God whatsoever! Do you get it?

2. I believe that the baptism in the Spirit is an INSTITUTIONAL baptism not an individual baptism. It is a public accreditation by God that a new house of God with its ministry, ordinances, worship and mission is acceptable to him and fit to be his dwelling place as a public house of worship. In other words it is what 1 Cor. 3;16 talks about but NOT what 1 Cor. 6:19 talks about. It refers to a SINGULAR "temple" with PLURAL members "ye" (1 Cor. 3:16) and not the SINGULAR "temple" with a SINGULAR "you" (1 Cor. 6:19). The candidate of this baptism is only the plural water baptized membership of the church in Jerusalem and no other church or kind of church whatsoever.

3. I believe that the baptism in the Spirit has to do with a PLURAL "you" formed into a SINGULAR particular local congregational body personally built by Christ in Jerusalem. It was repeated at the house of Cornelious only becasue the church at Jerusalem would not administer baptism to Gentiles or accept them into the Spirit baptized Jerusalem congregation.

4. I believe the "gift of the Spirit" in context of personal salvation always refers to the regenerating work of the Spirit of God while "the gift of the Spirit" in connection with the church and the apostolic office always refers to the public accreditation of the church and "power" through the apostolic church office to establish an enduring "witness" through the production of inspired scriptures called the New Testament.

Don't take my position and apply it to your theological mold and draw conclusion based upon your theological concepts. That is precisely what you did in your perversion of my position.

 

[Moriah]

It probably will do no good to tell you that you do not understand or represent correctly what I believe as your above statement is completely false.

I do not see your beliefs in the scriptures.
I repeated what you said. Now it is as if you are trying to get out of it.
You said in earlier posts that a person had to be water baptized in church in order to have the Holy Spirit.

I will spell it out for you in little words so that you will not pervert my position again (lol).

Can you find a new word to slander others? You use the word pervert excessively much.

1. I believe that individuals are personally regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit of God whether they were circumcised or uncirumcised before Pentecost or whether they were baptized or unbaptized after Pentecost and that membership in any church has nothing to do with individual indwelling by the Spirit of God whatsoever! Do you get it?

Do you believe when a person is regenerated they receive the Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit stays in them to live? Please be sure to answer that question.
Show me scripture in the Old Testament that says plainly that the people were regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and, or, show me scripture in the New Testament that says people in the Old Testament were regenerated by the Holy Spirit. If you want to teach me something, then be patient and explain it with scripture, otherwise do not even say it.

2. I believe that the baptism in the Spirit is an INSTITUTIONAL baptism not an individual baptism. It is a public accreditation by God that a new house of God with its ministry, ordinances, worship and mission is acceptable to him and fit to be his dwelling place as a public house of worship. In other words it is what 1 Cor. 3;16 talks about but NOT what 1 Cor. 6:19 talks about. It refers to a SINGULAR "temple" with PLURAL members "ye" (1 Cor. 3:16) and not the SINGULAR "temple" with a SINGULAR "you" (1 Cor. 6:19). The candidate of this baptism is only the plural water baptized membership of the church in Jerusalem and no other church or kind of church whatsoever.

True believers then and now receive the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit lives in them; they are a temple of the Holy Spirit. In addition, true believers live in Jesus in heaven.

Your beliefs and explanations are foreign. I do not see them in the scriptures.

3. I believe that the baptism in the Spirit has to do with a PLURAL "you" formed into a SINGULAR particular local congregational body personally built by Christ in Jerusalem. It was repeated at the house of Cornelious only becasue the church at Jerusalem would not administer baptism to Gentiles or accept them into the Spirit baptized Jerusalem congregation.

Oh how nice of you to give the Lord an exception.

4. I believe the "gift of the Spirit" in context of personal salvation always refers to the regenerating work of the Spirit of God

Again, do you believe the Holy Spirit remains inside a person that is being regenerated?

while "the gift of the Spirit" in connection with the church and the apostolic office always refers to the public accreditation of the church and "power" through the apostolic church office to establish an enduring "witness" through the production of inspired scriptures called the New Testament.

You just put in quotes the exact same thing, you said the "gift of the Spirit" two times and each with a different meaning. When I said it could happen at the same time, you attacked me.

Don't take my position and apply it to your theological mold and draw conclusion based upon your theological concepts. That is precisely what you did in your perversion of my position.

There is your favorite word again. Are you able to stop yourself from using that word?

 

[The Biblicist]

You said in earlier posts that a person had to be water baptized in church in order to have the Holy Spirit.

I never said that anywhere at anytime. What I said is that the baptism in the Spirit refers to a PLURAL number of water baptized believers prepared by John the Baptist that Christ would take and form into the new house of God and that is the promised subject for the baptism in the Spirit and indwelling of the Spirit of God as an institution. I have never said that individual indwelling by the Spirit of God has anything to do with the baptism in the Spirit.

Do you believe when a person is regenerated they receive the Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit stays in them to live? Please be sure to answer that question.

It is amazing you ask this question in response to the very quote that answers it and concludes with "DO YOU GET IT"? Apparently you are incapable of understanding English. Look at the very comment you are responding to! I will merely repost it as it answers your question thoroughly:

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
1. I believe that individuals are personally regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit of God whether they were circumcised or uncirumcised before Pentecost or whether they were baptized or unbaptized after Pentecost and that membership in any church has nothing to do with individual indwelling by the Spirit of God whatsoever! Do you get it?

Show me

No one can "show" a blind person anything! I have repeatedly placed Pre-Pentecost scriptures before your face that explicitly teach the new birth was a Pre-Pentecost experience and you ignore them and then ask over and over again where are they? Your blind and to prove you are blind I will not merely reference them as I have in the past but quote them:

Jn. 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

A. This was said by Jesus BEFORE the cross, BEFORE Pentecost.

B. Nicodemus was rebuked for being a Bible teacher and not understanding this truth - just like you are blind to it.

C. The only scripture that could reveal this truth was the Old Testament Scriptures. Just like you cannot see it in the Old Testament scriptures.

Of course you will respond that this is my interpretation and Jesus never meant that or this is a special case, etc., etc, ect., the normal responses of a blind man.

scripture in the Old Testament that says plainly that the people were regenerated by the Holy Spirit, and, or, show me scripture in the New Testament that says people in the Old Testament were regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

I just showed you in clear and explicit language by the words of none other but Jesus Christ but that won't be sufficient for your unbelieving heart. In the Old Testament regeneration was described as the circumcision of the heart:

De 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

What is it to be "stiffnecked" and how does circumcision of the heart rectify that problem? Think! Stiffnecked is the resistance described by Paul in Romans 8:7. Circumcison of the heart is God providing a NEW NATURE that is compliant and obedient to His commandments - law written in the heart.

De 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Without heart circumcision there is no eternal life as it is the same as quickening - regeneration - spiritual life - union with God.


Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

The uncircumcised heart is a rebellious NATURE that produces "evil...doings" just as Romans 8:7 teaches.

The universal rule of Romans 8:8-9 is from Genesis to Revelation.

True believers then and now receive the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit lives in them; they are a temple of the Holy Spirit. In addition, true believers live in Jesus in heaven.

The Holy Spirit dwelt within Old Testament saints and does all saints in all ages or else they cannot belong to God (Rom. 8:9).


1. Joseph - Gen. 41:38 And Pharaoh said unto his servants, Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

2. Joshua - Nub. 27:18 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;


3. Moses - Isa. 63:10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?

4. Daniel - Dan. 4:8 But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name was Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, saying,


Dan. 5:11 There is a man in thy kingdom, in whom is the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, was found in him; whom the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, the king, I say, thy father, made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers;

Dan. 5:14 - 14 I have even heard of thee, that the spirit of the gods is in thee, and that light and understanding and excellent wisdom is found in thee.

NOTE: Whenever a king attempted to attribute something falsely to Daniel, Daniel always corrected them and gave the glory to God. Daniel did not deny that the Spirit of God was in him.

Caleb was not a prophet and yet had the Spirit with him so that the followed "FULLY" after the Lord ALL HIS DAYS.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 was promised for Israel as a nation in the future but it was the present reality of every individual child of God from Genesis to Revelation because all the elect in all ages were "chosen in him before the foundation of the world" and they were chose "to salvation THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (Eph. 1:4; 2 Thes. 2:13).

Just as there is no possible salvation OUTSIDE OF CHRIST there is no salvation for anyone at any time that is SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED from The Spirit of God - Jn. 3:3-6; Rom. 8:8-9.

I challenge you and anyone on this forum to compare their spiritual life to that of David as recorded in the Psalms. Where do you go for comfort and identification with your spiritual warefare? The Psalms? Read his words about his inward struggles and inward faith and inward relationship with God and I dare you to say that you exceed his SPIRITUALITY!

Romans 8:9 is a universal rule that has no exceptions among fallen men at any time in recorded history from Genesis 3 to Revelation 21:1. There are only TWO POSSIBLE kinds of men

1. Saved or lost
2. Regenerated or unregenerated
3. Spiritually dead or spiritually alive
4. Children of God or children of Satan
5. In the flesh or In the Spirit
6. Justified or condemned
7. In the kingdom of God or in the kingdom of Satan
8. Redeemed or unredeemed
9. Spiritually united or spiritually separated
et.,


No amount of evidence can make a swine cherish pearls.

 

[Yeshua1]

We just see this from differing perspectives, as you would seem to adhereto the concept of JUST local assemblies of saints, not the Corporate Universal church, and also would hold to covenant theology as regarding one body through both Co0venants of faith, while I see it as being 2 seperate peoples of god, saved isrealites and Church!

Good news is that we can freely discuss/disagree, as bethren in same lord!

 

[The Biblicist]

We just see this from differing perspectives, as you would seem to adhereto the concept of JUST local assemblies of saints, not the Corporate Universal church, and also would hold to covenant theology as regarding one body through both Co0venants of faith, while I see it as being 2 seperate peoples of god, saved isrealites and Church!

Good news is that we can freely discuss/disagree, as bethren in same lord!

Your summary is correct.

What you and Moriah apply to the so-called universal inivisible church, I apply to the church institution built by Christ in Jerusalem.

The big difference is that my view of salvation is the same from Genesis to Revelation where your view changes from one kind of salvation prior to the Pentecost to another kind after Pentecost. Your view is a CHURCH SALVATION as you cannot separate personal individual salvation from your church concept.

In contrast, my view is the same gospel, same Savior, same kind of salvation (regeneration/indwellling, justification, progressive sanctification, glorification) equally for all the elect chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world regardless when they lived in keeping with Acts 10:43; Ephesians 1:4; 2 Thes. 2:13 and Rom. 8:8-9 and a host of other scriptures.

My view of the church does not mix salvation with it at all. My view of the baptism of the Spirit and the power provided in Pentecost is restricted to public accreditation and indwelling of the corporate institute and empowering of the apostolic office to provide a permenant "witness" through the production of the New Testament Scriptures.

My difference from yours can be easily distinguished by contrasting 1 Cor. 3:16 from 1 Cor. 6:19.

1. I Cor. 3:16 in context refers to the building of the local assembly located at Corinth to be a corporate temple of the Spirit of God. Note the singular "temple" and plural "ye" (not "we").

2. 1 Cor. 6:19 in context refers to the indivdiual physical body of the believer as a singular "temple" of the Holy Spirit. Note the singular "temple " with the singular "you."

The baptism in the Spirit according to my view has to do with the former not the latter.

Personal indwelling of the Spirit has to do with the latter not the former.

 

[Yeshua1]

Thankfully, would see this as being under "in house debate:, and would not be discussion in areas such as views on salvation, or on say the nature of the atonement etc!

 

[The Biblicist]

Your summary is correct.

What you and Moriah apply to the so-called universal inivisible church, I apply to the church institution built by Christ in Jerusalem.

The big difference is that my view of salvation is the same from Genesis to Revelation where your view changes from one kind of salvation prior to the Pentecost to another kind after Pentecost. Your view is a CHURCH SALVATION as you cannot separate personal individual salvation from your church concept.

In contrast, my view is the same gospel, same Savior, same kind of salvation (regeneration/indwellling, justification, progressive sanctification, glorification) equally for all the elect chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world regardless when they lived in keeping with Acts 10:43; Ephesians 1:4; 2 Thes. 2:13 and Rom. 8:8-9 and a host of other scriptures.

My view of the church does not mix salvation with it at all. My view of the baptism of the Spirit and the power provided in Pentecost is restricted to public accreditation and indwelling of the corporate institute and empowering of the apostolic office to provide a permenant "witness" through the production of the New Testament Scriptures.

My difference from yours can be easily distinguished by contrasting 1 Cor. 3:16 from 1 Cor. 6:19.

1. I Cor. 3:16 in context refers to the building of the local assembly located at Corinth to be a corporate temple of the Spirit of God. Note the singular "temple" and plural "ye" (not "we").

2. 1 Cor. 6:19 in context refers to the indivdiual physical body of the believer as a singular "temple" of the Holy Spirit. Note the singular "temple " with the singular "you."

The baptism in the Spirit according to my view has to do with the former not the latter.

Personal indwelling of the Spirit has to do with the latter not the former.

The historical Baptist view of salvation is the only view that denies to be savingly "in Christ" has nothing to do with the doctrine of the church whatsoever. It is the only view that denies church salvation.

1. Roman Catholocisim believes to be saved is to be in the universal visible church and to be outside of the church is to be lost (apart from specific exceptions)

2. Protestantism believes to be saved is to be in the universal invisible church and to be outside is to be lost.

3. Restorationist prophets (Mormons, JW's, etc.) believes to be saved is to be within their kind of church and to be lost is to be outside.

4. Historic Baptist believe the church doctrine has nothing to do with being spiritually "in Christ" at any time between Genesis and Revelation.

We believe that all the elect in all ages were chosen before the foundation of the world "TO salvation THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth; whereunto he called you by our gospel..." - 2 Thes. 2:13

We believe to be "in Christ" in regard to spiritual union is regeneration and positional union is justification by faith.

 

[The Biblicist]

Thankfully, would see this as being under "in house debate:, and would not be discussion in areas such as views on salvation, or on say the nature of the atonement etc!

Your view inserts the church into salvation and thus drastically changes the doctrine of salvation after Pentecost than before Pentecost.

My view has salvation "in Christ" (meaning his redemptive Person and work) alone before and after the cross, before and after Pentecost.

It is a huge difference as you ADD the church to the Biblical doctrine of salvation.

 

[Yeshua1]

The historical Baptist view of salvation is the only view that denies to be savingly "in Christ" has nothing to do with the doctrine of the church whatsoever. It is the only view that denies church salvation.

1. Roman Catholocisim believes to be saved is to be in the universal visible church and to be outside of the church is to be lost (apart from specific exceptions)

2. Protestantism believes to be saved is to be in the universal invisible church and to be outside is to be lost.

3. Restorationist prophets (Mormons, JW's, etc.) believes to be saved is to be within their kind of church and to be lost is to be outside.

4. Historic Baptist believe the church doctrine has nothing to do with being spiritually "in Christ" at any time between Genesis and Revelation.

We believe that all the elect in all ages were chosen before the foundation of the world "TO salvation THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth; whereunto he called you by our gospel..." - 2 Thes. 2:13

We believe to be "in Christ" in regard to spiritual union is regeneration and positional union is justification by faith.

When you "historic", do you mean reformed baptists?

As ALL baptists would hold to same view of HOW we are saved, just disagreeing on the actual timing/ordering of the event preceding and around salvation!I

 

[The Biblicist]

Thankfully, would see this as being under "in house debate:, and would not be discussion in areas such as views on salvation, or on say the nature of the atonement etc!

The bottom line issue between us is what does "in Christ" mean!

Those who hold your position limit it to one idea - spiritual union - which they further define as being integrated into mystical union with Christ's body the church.

However, a very careful and discerning study will reveal that "in Christ" has at least three major different applications in scriptures.

1. Redemptively "in Christ"
2. Representatively "in Christ"
3. Realistically/experientially "in Christ"

The first primarily deals with the major aspects of objective non-experiential salvation.

1. In Christ by election before the world began - Eph. 1:4
2. In Christ by substitution in the life and death of Christ - Eph. 2:5/Rom. 5
3. In Christ by creation/regeneration/spiritual union - Eph. 2:10
4. In Christ by judicial position/justification - Rom. 4:23-25

The second deal with the Metaphors

1. In Christ figuratively in baptism - Rom. 6:4-6;Gal. 3;27
2. In Christ representatively by church membership - 1 Cor. 12:27
3. In Christ metaphorically by partaking the Lord's Supper - 1 Cor. 10:15-18

The third deals with daily life practice

1. In Christ by faith in our daily walk - Col. 2:6
2. In Christ by infilling of the Spirit - Gal. 5:25


Failure to distinguish these three different applications of "in Christ" lead to many doctrinal and practical errors.

 

[The Biblicist]

When you "historic", do you mean reformed baptists?

As ALL baptists would hold to same view of HOW we are saved, just disagreeing on the actual timing/ordering of the event preceding and around salvation!I

I do not mean "Reformed" Baptists as "Reformed" Baptists view the church and baptism in the Spirit as you do.

I am referring to the Anabaptistic movement from the second to the sixteenth century or what some historians call "the free church movement"

 

[Yeshua1]

I do not mean "Reformed" Baptists as "Reformed" Baptists view the church and baptism in the Spirit as you do.

I am referring to the Anabaptistic movement from the second to the sixteenth century or what some historians call "the free church movement"

Is that the name of churches associated with Anabaptists?

wouldn't you hold to essentially same doctrines as other baptists though?

 

[The Biblicist]

Is that the name of churches associated with Anabaptists?

There are many different kinds of modern day denominations that claim historical association with the "free church movment" that preceded and stayed outside the Roman Catholic denomination prior to the Reformation. Our kind of Baptists is one of those groups that claim historical identification with it.

wouldn't you hold to essentially same doctrines as other baptists though?

We are basically united with other Baptists in regard to basic doctrine except the doctrine of the church and its ordinances as we reject open communion and alien immersion (immersion received from churches that are not like faith and order with us in ecclesiology).

 

[The Biblicist]

Is that the name of churches associated with Anabaptists?

wouldn't you hold to essentially same doctrines as other baptists though?

Consider this!

1. Do you believe the fallen nature of man is any different after the cross and Pentecost than before the cross and Pentecost?

2. Does not Paul prove that the REGENERATE man is incapable of overcoming indwelling sin in Romans 7:14-25 with special emphasis on verse 18 apart from dependence upon the indwelling Spirit of God?

3. Does not Paul prove that the UNREGENERATE man is incapable of submission to God in Romans 8:7?

You have invented another kind of human being prior to the cross that can overcome indwelling sin and walk by faith (Heb. 11) without being either regenerated or indwelt by the Spirit of God and that can be submissive to the law of God as an UNREGENERATED man. Hence, a completely different kind of human being with a completely different kind of fallen nature.

Romans 8:8-9 is placed in a UNIVERSAL context where only TWO different classes of mankind exist in this world. Those who are "in the flesh" and those who are "in the Spirit" and those without the indwelling Spirit of God are explicitly said to be "NONE OF HIS." Are those listed in Hebrews His?

Consider this Old Testament assertion by God:

Deut. 29: 4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

What would God have to do to reverse this condition that matches the description given by Paul in Romans 8:7?

Rom. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Isn't the ONLY response to the problem God describes in Deuteronomy 29:4 is provided in Ezekiel 36:26-27?

Ezek. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Does not Paul define this as the new birth under the new covenant in 2 Cor. 3:3-6???

Now consider their stated condition in Deuteronomy 29:4 and ask yourself is that simply a special condition of some men before the cross or all men by nature? If so, then what happened to men like Abel, Seth, Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Caleb, David, etc., etc. that reversed that state or condition?? Ask youself that question in regard to the Pre-cross rebuke of Nicodemus by Christ in John 3:9-10?

The evidence is overwhelming and abundant when you have eyes to see the truth.

 

[Moriah]

It is amazing you ask this question in response to the very quote that answers it and concludes with "DO YOU GET IT"? Apparently you are incapable of understanding English. Look at the very comment you are responding to! I will merely repost it as it answers your question thoroughly:

Originally Posted by The Biblicist
1. I believe that individuals are personally regenerated and indwelt by the Spirit of God whether they were circumcised or uncirumcised before Pentecost or whether they were baptized or unbaptized after Pentecost and that membership in any church has nothing to do with individual indwelling by the Spirit of God whatsoever! Do you get it?

Get off me heel biter.

You sound like a tormented soul.

I understand English.

You have said that the Holy Spirit indwells them to regenerate them, that does NOT automatically mean the Holy Spirit stays to live forever.

You need the Lord. Repent Sir, stop rejecting the truth and start obeying Jesus.

 

[Yeshua1]

the point is that God did NOT expect, nor provide for the OT believers to being able to overcome their flesh, to fully obey the law, as thelaw was given to regulate behavior, to regulate their disociety as way God wanted, as isreal was His Covenant people/nation...

So they were same back then as we are now before saved bygod, sinners, weak in the flesh , so god remitted/passed over their sins, while in the better/superior new Covenant he provided for full atonement and the power now to live for God, as receiving new natures AND the Holy Spirit!

 

[Moriah]

No one can "show" a blind person anything!

Your eyes might be opened by something I say. Not only that, I love exposing false doctrine and explaining the truth for even one person. However, I really do not think you influence anyone that reads your beliefs that are foreign to the word of God and not found in the Holy Bible.

I have repeatedly placed Pre-Pentecost scriptures before your face that explicitly teach the new birth was a Pre-Pentecost experience and you ignore them and then ask over and over again where are they? Your blind and to prove you are blind I will not merely reference them as I have in the past but quote them:

In your dark mind, you think you have done such a thing.

Jn. 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

A. This was said by Jesus BEFORE the cross, BEFORE Pentecost.
B. Nicodemus was rebuked for being a Bible teacher and not understanding this truth - just like you are blind to it.

Nicodemus should have KNOWN these things because they are in the Old Testament about what is GOING TO HAPPEN.

C. The only scripture that could reveal this truth was the Old Testament Scriptures. Just like you cannot see it in the Old Testament scriptures.

Of course you will respond that this is my interpretation and Jesus never meant that or this is a special case, etc., etc, ect., the normal responses of a blind man.

I just showed you in clear and explicit language by the words of none other but Jesus Christ but that won't be sufficient for your unbelieving heart. In the Old Testament regeneration was described as the circumcision of the heart:
De 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

You quoted from the Old Testament what God is GOING TO DO. You have not given scripture that had happened to the people of the Old Testament.
The scriptures from the Old Testament you quoted is what God is GOING TO DO, WHEN HE MAKES A NEW COVENANT WITH THEM.
Old Testament MEANS Old Covenant, New Testament MEANS NEW COVENANT.
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another, But God found fault with the people and said:
“The time is coming, declares the Lord,
When I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel
And with the house of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers …
This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
After that time, declares the Lord,
I will put my laws in their minds
And write them on their hearts.

See Hebrews 8:8

Again, you do not have understanding.
You give Old Testament scripture about what is GOING TO HAPPEN.
That is why Nicodemus should have known, for the Old Testament tells us what is GOING to happen.
Those things did NOT happen until Jesus Christ came and died and rose again.