Featured God's love, is it equal for everyone???

Salzer, to me it seems pretty clear that here, in John, Jesus is addressing his prayers to these particular followers...his disciples. I note the past tense of "they have obeyed", "they have accepted" in the narrative just prior to His statement of "not praying for the world". Instruct me if I read this wrongly.

 

It is hard to comprehend the different degrees of God's love expressed in His word we are to believe God and His word. John was the disciple whom Jesus loved. Did Jesus love the rest of them yes, but there is different degrees. So many need milk of God's word and get back to believing God. If it is me I hope I do not resist.

 

St. John 17:9 I pray for them, (His disciples) I pray not for the world, (Non-elect) but for them which thou hast given me, (the disciples in this verse); for they are thine. Notice in the second verse of this chapter. As thou (God) hast given him (Christ) power over all flesh (all mankind) that he should give eternal life to as many AS THOU HAST GIVEN HIM. Not only is the disciples included in the second verse but the many or(elect) the Father gives to the Son. In St. John 6: 37, All that the FATHER GIVETH ME shall come to me; and him that cometh to me i will in no wise cast out. Here again we see the all is the elect that will come to Christ. Verse 39, And this is the will of him that sent me, that of ALL WHICH HE HATH GIVEN ME I should loose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. St. John 10:29 My Father, which GAVE THEM ME ,is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand. As many as were ordained unto eternal life believed, Acts 13:48 Not any less, not any more.

 

John 17:
Jesus Prays for All Believers

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you[Greek your name] known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Acts 10 :
39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

1 Thessalonians 2:
13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. 14 For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.[Or them fully]

Philippians 2 :
Do Everything Without Grumbling

12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

14 Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.”[Deut. 32:5] Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky 16 as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain. 17 But even if I am being poured out like a drink offering on the sacrifice and service coming from your faith, I am glad and rejoice with all of you. 18 So you too should be glad and rejoice with me.

 

God's love is not static. His love is not like a feather being blown by the wind; falling on a specific spot by accident as opposed to design. God's love is not as much a noun as it is a verb. It has an intended purpose. God sets out to do something when He loves, and He always accomplishes what He sets out to do.

The love of God, through the Holy Spirit, controls us in order that we should live no longer for ourselves, but for Christ. God's love does not control those who are still in their sins. They are separated from God, and without hope (Eph. 2:12).

One may argue, "Does not 2 Cor. 5:14, 15 say that "one died for all"? Therefore, does God not love all?" Since God's love is not static, and it always has a purpose, how can God love those whom are still in their sins? See that in 2 Corinthians Paul is addressing all of a group. He is addressing the, "the church of God which is at Corinth with all the saints who are throughout Achaia" (2 Cor. 2:1). The "all" of 2 Cor. 5:14, 15 is the intended audience in 2 Cor. 2:1.

 

Christ knew full well whom he prayed for in John 17:20. The matter was reduced to a certainty by the divine prescience and purpose; he knew who were given him, St. John 17 verse two. Who being ordained to eternal life, were intered in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world, Rev 17;8 and should undoubtedly believe, Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to THE FAITH OF GODS ELECT, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness.

 

I suggest that 'the world' here in Jn 17 is the same 'world' as in Jn 12 & Jn 18 (and other places):

18 For this cause also the multitude went and met him, for that they heard that he had done this sign.
19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Behold how ye prevail nothing: lo, the world is gone after him. Jn 12

20 Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing. Jn 18:20

[add]

To paraphrase, 'I pray for the disciples, I pray not for the synagogues, the temple, or the Jews'.

 

Acts 10 :
39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

I will never disagree with the elect that ate with Him and also the rest not like them no one can be saved without messengers, and also those were included when they heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed. Godliness is Jesus Christ not us, in Christ comes Godliness and life there is no life apart from Him and He opens our eyes to the truth with coming to Him with faith that is believing what we do not see, not what we have already seen.

I know that man have well educated teachers that men have surrounding themselves around that tell them what their itching ears want to hear, but all and world is not limited to what you want it to be. If is said man loved the world then it is limited to what he knows, but when God said He loved the world He is talking about all He knows. His enemy that He sent His Son to die for that whosoever believes in His Son will be saved.

There is an audience not some mystery so you can place the elect you want to place in there.

It is whosoever believes, it is those who see Jesus high and lifted up. It is those who come to the knowledge of the truth through the message that the elect are sent out with to reach the ends of the earth, those who are in the deepest part of Africa until our end of the age not just Paul's end of his age.

Here is three witnesses that stands against you, you can change the scripture to your will, you have a free agency with those who tell you what your itching ears want to hear. I am tired of listen to people that change scripture to their own understanding.

2 Peter 3:
3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2
Instructions on Worship

2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.

Ezekiel 18 :
24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?

30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Here is also what God said.

Ezekiel 3:18
When I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn them or speak out to dissuade them from their evil ways in order to save their life, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood.

Ezekiel 3:20
“Again, when a righteous person turns from their righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before them, they will die. Since you did not warn them, they will die for their sin. The righteous things that person did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for their blood.

Ezekiel 33:6
But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes someone’s life, that person’s life will be taken because of their sin, but I will hold the watchman accountable for their blood.’

Ezekiel 33:8
When I say to the wicked, ‘You wicked person, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out to dissuade them from their ways, that wicked person will die for their sin, and I will hold you accountable for their blood.

James 5:20
remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

James 3:1
Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Jeremiah 23 :
21 I did not send these prophets,
yet they have run with their message;
I did not speak to them,
yet they have prophesied.
22 But if they had stood in my council,
they would have proclaimed my words to my people
and would have turned them from their evil ways
and from their evil deeds.

 

Pitchback

Yes Paul uses the word translated world for the planet, but John does not. John does not use the word for elect which excludes non-elect, and John does not use the word translated world for the non-elect excluding the elect. This effort to claim mankind or the corrupt system of fallen mankind is not in view in every usage of John is without merit.

The idea is to reference organized humanity, families, tribes, nations.

 

By this post psalms 109 you seem to be saying if world is in a scripture then just take it for what it say's, don't explain anything and give everyone you speak to the impression you are talking about everyone in the world. When the scripture says, The Pharisees said among themselves, behold how you prevail nothing: lo, the world is gone after him. I will ask you, did the whole world go after him ? Did the Pharisees and Saddusees go after him ? Did every person in every nation under heaven go after him ?

 

Satan who leads whole world astray is to wake up wicked man who God does not desire to die but repent turn away from the world. We who follow Jesus are no longer apart of the world but before we where children of wrath headed for destruction. When God says He loves the world that means them wicked sinners to repent and live. What is meant to bring people to Christ many want to use to prove their own understanding of the word of God. To say what the Holy Spirit did not say in the text.

Believing in God isn't easy believism

 

There is a big difference in what man sees as the world, but when God says world it is not limited He is talking about sinners who Jesus came to save and whosoever believes in Him will be saved.

 

I already see you never answer a direct question, I would suggest you study more on the nature of man and if God ever reveals to you how corrupt man is and how much natural hatred man has for the God revealed in scripture, and then how impotant man is, you will began to see believing just don't come natural for a lost man. If God had ever shown you how corrupt you were as a sinner, you would know your salvation took pure free grace.

 

Why would it "deteriorate" into such a discussion??? What exactly does the "Cal vs.non-Calvie" debate have to do with it??

You assume by your own OP that the question automatically entails the "Cal-non-Cal" debate........so I insist you tell us WHY that it entails as much..WHY would it? why SHOULD it?...........Do you suggest that given your OP that there is an entailed difference of opinion about who God "loves" in the Cal/Arm debate?
Is there a difference?
Do Arms insist that God "loves" some people "more" or even equitably that Cals insist that he DOESN'T???
What's the "Cal/non-Cal" connection?

Are you honestly suggesting that there is in fact an ADMITTED difference between whom Arminians believe God "loves" and whom Calvinists..belive God "loves".......is this where we are?
Do you officially admit that Calvinists believe that God "loves" some more or less than others???

 

I do know how corrupt I was a dead man with no hope, but His word gave life to this dead man. The life I needed to turn to Him. I have been born again by His word. I became I new creation the old creation was headed for destruction.

It is a shame to those who will not turn to Jesus to have the life God gave me through the words of Jesus. God does not desire the death of anyone but rather repent and live.

If you don't believe that, then me and you will never agree.

My wages of my sin is death I do not have to pay it Jesus has and I am saved by grace. If I wasn't then I will still owe the cost of my sin. I believe in Him, not what I have done but what He has done that saved me.

I need saving because I am a corrupted sinner not because I am not.

 

Let me explain better, in the mind of a pharisee

When the Pharisees (elect) saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners(heathens worldly men)?”


So the Pharisees (elect) said to one another, “See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world(heathens, sinners, not us elect) has gone after him!”

 

Well His love towards the elect is said to be the apple of His eye though this does not include Gentiles. Only Jews. Gentiles are adopted and our branch is supported but the Jewish root.
MB

 

So much of the consternation and disagreement as to whether God loves some more than others, as I see it, centers around how each of us understand the larger picture of election. I really like Christopher JH Wright's perspective on such.

It has to be said that much of the debate over the meaning of election, predestination, reprobation and associated concepts has been carried on at a level of systematic abstraction and binary logic that seems oblivious to the way the Old Testament speaks of God’s choice of Israel. Between election in the Hebrew Scriptures of Jesus and election in the foundations of theological systems there sometimes seems to be a great gulf fixed.

“The election of Israel is instrumental, not an end in itself. Israel was chosen as the means by which salvation could be extended throughout the earth. Israel as a nation was chosen to be the vehicle in which God’s mission would be extended to the whole world.” Not every person in Israel was saved; like Abraham before them, they had to place their faith in God to be saved.

“The election of Israel is fundamentally missional, not just soteriological.” According to Wright, “If we allow the doctrine of election to become merely a secret calculus that determines who gets saved and who does not, we have lost touch with its original biblical intention.”

 

I can't argue with that at all. Well said.
MB

 

All saved persons are the elect.There were elect persons before Israel was called. To limit election to Ot Israel is a falsehood.