The Church and the DEATH Penalty?

[righteousdude2]

With the recent botched attempt to execute a convicted murderer ... do you feel the death penalty should be abolished?

Or, did the man deserve to die? This is why he was convicted and sentenced to death:

"Lockett was executed for a crime he committed in 1999: he shot a nineteen-year-old girl named Stephanie Neiman with a sawed-off shotgun, and then he watched as a pair of accomplices buried her alive. Charles Warner, the inmate who was to be executed after Lockett, was convicted of raping and killing an eleven-month-old girl in 1997. “This is not about whether these two men are guilty; that is not in dispute,” Ryan Kiesel, the executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union’s Oklahoma office, said in a statement. “Rather, it comes down to whether we trust the government enough to allow it to kill its citizens, even guilty ones, in a secret process.” Borrowed from the folling link - http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2014/04/witnesses-to-a-botched-execution.html

What do you really think about lethal injection, versus other forms of execution, or should we just lock these killers up and legally throw away the keys???

 

[Salty]

The Old Testament supports the death penalty. The NT does not require not prohibit the death penalty.

As far as "throw away the key" - ie no possibility of parole - well - 1) he could always commit murder while in prison 2) he could escape 3) His sentenced could be commuted 4) Parole is always possible

did I forget anything?

A big debate in the past was that many innocents were executed. DNA has all but ended that debate.

BTW, that execution was NOT botched - it was simply delayed.

There are those who say the govt has no right to take a life. The govt is not taking the life - it was a choice of the individual who chose to give it up.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I was listening to a 'liberal' podcast this morning where this topic came up. I appreciated the thoughts of a consitutional lawyer.



She was not in favour of an absolute ban on the death penalty. She thought they should be rarer, and she thought that this disaster this week was an example of how inhumae the system is. She said that when it is done it should be quick and humane. She recommended a modern guillotine because it would be quick, effeciant, and not 'cruel and unusual.'



Interesting thoughts for a liberal, and I think consistent with the word of God. God never forbids the government taking life, in fact in the OT He sanctions it. But there is no benefit to inflicting torture or extra suffering. Then it is just vengeance.

The withdrawal of death penalty drugs and the lack of doctors willing to perform lethal injections is a difficult situation to deal with.

 

[pinoybaptist]

..................

She was not in favour of an absolute ban on the death penalty. She thought they should be rarer,

....which would make defining 'rarer' that much and that long of an argumentation.

and she thought that this disaster this week was an example of how inhumae the system is. She said that when it is done it should be quick and humane. She recommended a modern guillotine because it would be quick, effeciant, and not 'cruel and unusual.'

yet one of these criminals blasted a human being with a shotgun, then watched her get buried....ALIVE and in full terror of what was happening and being done to her, and another of these 'things' raped a baby, an infant.

Interesting thoughts for a liberal, and I think consistent with the word of God. God never forbids the government taking life, in fact in the OT He sanctions it. But there is no benefit to inflicting torture or extra suffering. Then it is just vengeance.

didn't they have swords in the Old Testament ? which would have been more quick and 'surgical' for lack of a better word ? run a convict with a sword through the heart (I'm sure they of the old testament knew how to use one and where and how to strike to cause immediate death).
yet Jehovah set stoning as the method of execution.
It's a terrifying, not often quick, way to die.

 

[pinoybaptist]

...........................
As far as "throw away the key" - ie no possibility of parole - well - 1) he could always commit murder while in prison 2) he could escape 3) His sentenced could be commuted 4) Parole is always possible

not to mention the fact that it will be the TAXPAYERS who will shoulder these criminals' continued existence and well-being, while those who have been affected by their viciousness continue to wallow in the misery of their loss, AND, if they are also taxpayers, contribute to the continued existence of the perpetrators.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

....which would make defining 'rarer' that much and that long of an argumentation.







yet one of these criminals blasted a human being with a shotgun, then watched her get buried....ALIVE and in full terror of what was happening and being done to her, and another of these 'things' raped a baby, an infant.









didn't they have swords in the Old Testament ? which would have been more quick and 'surgical' for lack of a better word ? run a convict with a sword through the heart (I'm sure they of the old testament knew how to use one and where and how to strike to cause immediate death).

yet Jehovah set stoning as the method of execution.

It's a terrifying, not often quick, way to die.

Not sure the OT 'eye for an eye" is a good guideline. This church should have a different attitude toward justice. There is no need for vengeance to achieve justice.

 

[church mouse guy]

Not sure the OT 'eye for an eye" is a good guideline. This church should have a different attitude toward justice. There is no need for vengeance to achieve justice.

It is a good thing that the commandment to put murderers to death given to Noah predates Mosaic Law, as you know from seminary.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Of course. Haven't denied anything like that. It's just that the church age, and that is the topic of the OP, is not about vengeance. Sure, justice must be served, but why not make it swift an as humane as possible?

 

[church mouse guy]

Of course. Haven't denied anything like that. It's just that the church age, and that is the topic of the OP, is not about vengeance. Sure, justice must be served, but why not make it swift an as humane as possible?

Well, you sure confused me when you mentioned eye-for-eye, which is Mosaic, as you know, and Noah is before that, as you know. And now you have me confused again when you say that the Church Age is exempt from the commandment given to Noah, which you call vengeance it seems to me and not criminal justice.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Well, you sure confused me when you mentioned eye-for-eye, which is Mosaic, as you know, and Noah is before that, as you know. And now you have me confused again when you say that the Church Age is exempt from the commandment given to Noah, which you call vengeance it seems to me and not criminal justice.

I am sorry, I can't find where the Noahic commandment required cruelty in putting a murderer to death or where I suggested that the church age is exempt.

I think in every post I have stated that the state has the right, even the injunction to carry out executions. But it seems incumbent that it is done in such a way that justice is carried out without added suffering. To push for a vicious execution is only vengeance.

As the podcaster pointed out a modern guillotine would be an ideal method.

 

[carpro]

Funny.

The same folks that argue the willing acceptance of whatever the government and our leaders do based on the teachings of the new testament are the same folks that argue vehemently against the power of the state to take a life as punishment for the most heinous of crimes.

 

[preachinjesus]

Such a difficult topic.

Too many Christians, imho, enter into this one sounding like they've got more than a healthy amount of bloodlust in their reasoning.

I'm opposed to the death penalty in nearly all circumstances. There are exceptions. For instance, this fellow over in Norway (I think) who went on a rampage and murdered dozens.

In the US we must be honest about our system from state-to-state. The massive over-representation of poor and minorities on death rows should be enough to cause pause. It is no small truth that a moderately rich, white person in the US can murder five or six people in front of dozens and get off with life in prison while a poor black man might be found guilty of murder with no direct witnesses and sentenced to murder. This is an injustice.

Likewise, because of the numerous exonerations happening both before and sadly after executions of death row inmates the system must be halted and re-evaluated.

From a Christian position, our goal is to advocate life. When I read Dr Mohler's article that was recently published on CNN I was struck by the fact that he never mentioned Jesus in describing why Christians should be for the death penalty. Jesus wasn't for the death penalty. The pericope adultere demonstrates this.

Our goal as Christians is to advocate for the salvation of all, no matter how craven.

Consider though Jeffrey Dahmer who, in his most terrible crime, most horrible crime, was incarcerated and found Christ before he, himself was murdered. Was his a soul that shouldn't have been redeemed?

I oppose the death penalty, save a few, rare, exceptions. It is a brutish punishment that marks an uncivilized people and, in the US, is highly unjust.

 

[church mouse guy]

I am sorry, I can't find where the Noahic commandment required cruelty in putting a murderer to death or where I suggested that the church age is exempt.

I think in every post I have stated that the state has the right, even the injunction to carry out executions. But it seems incumbent that it is done in such a way that justice is carried out without added suffering. To push for a vicious execution is only vengeance.

As the podcaster pointed out a modern guillotine would be an ideal method.

Well, I can't understand you at all. You said that the Church Age was not about vengeance and that implied to me that the law given to Noah was about vengeance. Why did you even mention vengeance? What if your guillotine malfunctions? Nothing human is perfect, is it?

 

[Salty]

...In the US we must be honest about our system from state-to-state. The massive over-representation of poor and minorities on death rows should be enough to cause pause. ...

Yes, our system is broke as there are many more men than women on Death Row. This massive over-represenation of men should be enough to cause pause.

 

[prophet]

The Sword is in the hand of the King, not the Church

 

[church mouse guy]

The Sword is in the hand of the King, not the Church

The death penalty is in the hands of the civil authorities and Christians should insist on the death penalty for murderers, including abortion doctors.

 

[pinoybaptist]

The death penalty is in the hands of the civil authorities and Christians should insist on the death penalty for murderers, including abortion doctors.

correct, and incorrect (bolded).
if I had my way, the term "cruel and unusual punishment" would be struck off in cases where the taking of life is involved (including abortion), and the punishment will be one which truly fits the crime, literally.
if the murder was committed slowly, then his life will be taken slowly, as in stoning.
(by a row of computerized slingshots that can throw 15-pound stones ? :laugh.
however, there is nothing in Scripture that says believers are to insist on the death penalty.
what is in scripture is to submit to authority, that is, be law-abiding, and I take that to include not agitating for the death penalty where such is not in a state, or country's, laws.
now, if an elected lawmaker should propose the institution or return whatever the case may be of such a punishment, then, by all means, throw him our support.
and I might include add a provision for a quick and thorough review of the investigative procedures and culling of evidences, and a quick process of appeals not to exceed 6 months, after which, if everything is satisfactory, then put the criminal out of his miserable existence.

 

[Salty]

The death penalty is in the hands of the civil authorities and Christians should insist on the death penalty for murderers, including abortion doctors.

Does that include the mothers?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

if I had my way, the term "cruel and unusual punishment" would be struck off in cases where the taking of life is involved (including abortion), and the punishment will be one which truly fits the crime, literally.
if the murder was committed slowly, then his life will be taken slowly, as in stoning.
(by a row of computerized slingshots that can throw 15-pound stones ? :laugh.

Why?.................

 

[pinoybaptist]

Why?.................

because for the death penalty to mean something for proven murderers and other criminals whose crimes fall under such a provision, if any, they need to know that they're going to experience pain, before death, like their victims did.
these criminals are, by and large, mostly, COWARDS.
they don't like the idea of pain, or suffering.
they probably don't mind dying, or most of them don't.
people who blow themselves up, like terrorists, are not afraid of dying, because they won't even know they done it until they're in bed with their seven virgins, so hit them where they'll hurt.....tell them before they're killed, somebody's going to do a number on their pistachios. :laugh:
then what're they gon' do when they're in front of their seven virgins ?

come on, C4K, I'm just indulging my fantasies on what I'd really like to do with these people before I put them out of their miserable existence, and I don't care if they've been 'abused' since birth.

it ain't gon' happen, and I know it don't sound right, but whoever has always had some thoughts right ?