Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault

[poncho]

Don Poncho:

Meanwhile, NATO officials said Friday that Moscow has sent Russian-manned artillery units into Ukraine in recent days and was using them to shell Ukrainian forces as part of a "major escalation" of Russian involvement in the disputed region.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/08/23/ukraine-aid-russia-luhansk/14487159/

Yeah and right after that allegation, there's this allegation.

"Russian artillery support — both cross-border and from within Ukraine — is being employed against the Ukrainian armed forces," Rasmussen said, adding large quantities of advanced weapons, including tanks, armored personnel carriers and artillery had been transferred recently to separatist groups in eastern Ukraine.

Followed by this allegation.

Rhodes also condemned the firing of artillery from Russia into Ukraine and a "disturbing movement of Russian artillery and military equipment" into the country.

Followed by this allegation.

The warnings come as Ukrainian troops have begun to gain ground against Russian-backed separatists in their battles over the disputed area since April.

With this threat thrown in for good measure.

U.S. Deputy National Security Adviser Ben Rhodes warned Russia to remove the convoy from Ukraine or "face additional costs and consequences" from the United States and its allies.

Nice article but where's the evidence?

Okay. One more time.

1.) Allege means . . . al·lege verb \ə-ˈlej\

: to state without definite proof that someone has done something wrong or illegal


2.) Evidence means . . . ev·i·dence noun \ˈe-və-dən(t)s, -və-ˌden(t)s\

: something which shows that something else exists or is true

: a visible sign of something

: material that is presented to a court of law to help find the truth about something

See the difference?

I keep asking for evidence but all you keep showing me are more allegations.

Is this what you call "news"? Really?

Where's the evidence?

Do you remember "Curve Ball"? How about the infamous "incubator babies" story? Do remember them? How about the Jessica Lynch "story" do you remember that?

"Fool me once shame on you, fool me time and time and time again with the very same type of propaganda means I really enjoy being fooled."

Where's the evidence? There must be some evidence right?

Where is it?

C'mon folks seriously, where's the evidence? Can anyone reading this provide some evidence to back up any of these allegations on top of allegations? Help a poor fella out. CMG is getting exhausted looking all by himself. And I think he might of finally run out of silly images to post instead of the evidence I keep asking for. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[church mouse guy]

Don Poncho, is it the fault of the West that Russia fired artillery on the Ukraine?

 

[poncho]

Don't give up yet CMG keep looking, that evidence has to be out there somewhere. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[church mouse guy]

Don Poncho, how can you dismiss the new as published by mainstream newspapers such as USA Today?

"Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel has not spoken to his Russian counterpart about the artillery attack and has no plans to, Warren said."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ian-artillery-fired-eastern-ukraine/13108615/

 

[poncho]

Don Poncho, how can you dismiss the new as published by mainstream newspapers such as USA Today?

"Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel has not spoken to his Russian counterpart about the artillery attack and has no plans to, Warren said."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ian-artillery-fired-eastern-ukraine/13108615/

Let's look at your "news".

The State Department also said Thursday they had evidence of the Russian attack.

"We have new evidence that the Russians intend to deliver heavier and more powerful multiple rocket launchers to separatist forces in Ukraine and have evidence that Russia is firing artillery from within Russian to attack Ukrainian military positions," State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf told reporters.

The allegations come a day after two Ukrainian attack planes were shot down over rebel-held territory. Ukraine's government said the missiles were fired from Russia. U.S. defense and intelligence officials said they could not verify the claim.

You see that word? Yeah, that word. Allegations. Do you remember what the word allege means?

1.) Allege means . . . al·lege verb \ə-ˈlej\

: to state without definite proof that someone has done something wrong or illegal

"Ukraine's government said the missiles were fired from Russia." This is an as yet unfounded allegation. It is not evidence.

Moving on. "U.S. defense and intelligence officials said they could not verify the claim". "Could not verify the claim", do you understand what "could not verify the claim" means? The word "verify" means . . . : to prove, show, find out, or state that (something) is true or correct

Everyday these yahoos make more allegations and everyday they show absolutely no evidence to back these allegations.

Where does Marie Harf get her information? She already told us. Do you remember? No?

Ok, she told us she gets her "intell" from social media sites and the Ukrainian government. (see the Rev's article) The Ukrainian government reminds me of the "little boy who cried wolf". They're always "alleging this and alleging that" but they never provide any EVIDENCE to back their many allegations up. Remember what I said about the NY Times "credibility"?

No? I said . . . "The NY Times credibility as does anyone's rests on their ability to back up their claims with evidence." The same applies to the Ukrainian government, Marie Harf and you.

Where are all the reporters? Where's the evidence?

Do you remember what the definition of "evidence" is?

2.) Evidence means . . . ev·i·dence noun \ˈe-və-dən(t)s, -və-ˌden(t)s\

: something which shows that something else exists or is true

: a visible sign of something

: material that is presented to a court of law to help find the truth about something

"Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel has not spoken to his Russian counterpart about the artillery attack and has no plans to, Warren said." If it were true that the Russians have been firing artillery rounds into Ukraine one would think it would be a main topic of discussion between Chuck Hagel and his "Russian counterpart" wouldn't one? Well, I would think so anyways.

Your "news" isn't news at all CMG, it's just one unfounded allegation after another after another after another . . .

But don't give up, the evidence has to be out there, somewhere. It's just not in any of your "news" articles because the people making all the allegations haven't proven any of their allegations to be true.

prove verb \ˈprüv\

: to show the existence, truth, or correctness of (something) by using evidence, logic, etc.

: to show that (someone or something) has a particular quality, ability, etc.

: to turn out to be

We should change the name of the "nightly news" to the "nightly allegations" because that's all they give us. More allegations.

Where's the evidence?

Has it been so long that you've had to do your own thinking that you've forgotten how?

 

[church mouse guy]

Hagel is lame and should not be Sec. of Defense. He made public homophobic slurs.

There is no doubt of the facts, Don Poncho, but you have dismissed them as allegations.

KGB Lt. Col. Putin would be the greatest leader in the world if he did not suffer so much from syphilis of the brain.

 

[poncho]

Hagel is lame and should not be Sec. of Defense. He made public homophobic slurs.

There is no doubt of the facts, Don Poncho, but you have dismissed them as allegations.

KGB Lt. Col. Putin would be the greatest leader in the world if he did not suffer so much from syphilis of the brain.

If you've found some facts I wish you'd quit playing around and post them.

 

[church mouse guy]

Don Poncho, I have just one question for you. Is it the fault of the West what Russia is doing in the Ukraine?

 

[poncho]

Don Poncho, I have just one question for you. Is it the fault of the West what Russia is doing in the Ukraine?

And I have one question for you. Who's fault is it that you can't find any evidence to back up your oft repeated allegations?

 

[church mouse guy]

In other words, you do not want to back up your own claim in the thread that you have entitled that the West is at fault. You have denied the validity of published reports and you have denied the validity American government statements. KGB Lt. Col Putin agrees with you, Don Poncho.

Ukraine and the West say that Russia is supporting and supplying the rebels and that since mid-August, Russia has fired into Ukraine from across the border and from within Ukrainian territory. Moscow denies those allegations.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/08/25/russian-tanks-armored-vehicles-enter-southeast-ukraine/

 

[poncho]

In other words, you do not want to back up your own claim in the thread that you have entitled that the West is at fault.

What claim is that CMG? Do mean this one?

"Everyday these yahoos make more allegations and everyday they show absolutely no evidence to back these allegations."

It's true. The fact that you can't find any evidence to back their allegations is proof of that.

You have denied the validity of published reports and you have denied the validity American government statements. KGB Lt. Col Putin agrees with you, Don Poncho.

I haven't denied anything. I questioned the validity of your published reports because there is not one shred of evidence in them to prove the accusations being made in them are anything more than unfounded allegations.

Then I asked you to show us the evidence that would verify these claims to be true. Which seems to be causing you to undergo a rather painful cognitive dissonance experience.

And now you're trying hard to find a way to extricate yourself from this uncomfortable position you've gotten yourself in without having to admit the awful truth, "there is no evidence".

I feel your pain. :smilewinkgrin:

There may be hope after all CMG ole buddy. I'm going to throw you a life line. It's blurry and shaky and very questionable as is everything that comes out of this democrat administration you've teamed up with. But it's more than you've been able to come up with so far.

US Releases Satellite Images Allegedly Proving Russian Shelling Of East Ukraine

Nonetheless, one does have to wonder: why would the ODNI, which shares intelligence with the NSA, have to resort to private-sector satellite imagery as proof? If there is anyone who has definitive evidence of anything happening in the world at any given moment and as seen from space, it would be the NSA.

 

[church mouse guy]

Don Poncho, now you are alleging that I have teamed up with 0bam@, who hates me. You do not have a shred of evidence, Don Poncho. If anything, 0bam@ is like you, Don Poncho, in that he is not concerned with the march of the Huns.

 

[poncho]

Don Poncho, now you are alleging that I have teamed up with 0bam@, who hates me. You do not have a shred of evidence, Don Poncho. If anything, 0bam@ is like you, Don Poncho, in that he is not concerned with the march of the Huns.

You've followed the progressive Wilsonian philosophy of using the military to "make the world safe for democracy" as long as I have known you. This is the root of the neocon philosophy which you are still defending to this day. This is the same philosophy Obama is following. Hence you and Obama are on the same team.

You didn't just join the progressives. You've always been a progressive as far as "foreign policy" goes.

And you keep saying I have no evidence to disprove something you have yet to prove. And all that just because you can't prove the allegations you keep posting as facts are true.

That's some kind of mental gymnastics you got going on there. I hope you don't hurt yourself trying to turn logic upside down and inside out CMG.

Stop twisting and distorting and playing the "guilt by association game" it's getting really stale now and just show us the evidence to back up your allegations. If you can't do that just say so.

 

[church mouse guy]

You have no evidence to back up your allegations, Don Poncho, and it is beneath you to make such allegations. I got wise to Woodrow Wilson about 1965 when I did a research paper on him.

Your error, Don Poncho, is that while observing the news on the Russian incursion into the Ukraine with military fire, you equate the observation with the desire to become involved militarily.

Furthermore, Don Poncho, you have not presented any allegations that the Democrats are going to do anything whatsoever.

 

[poncho]

You have no evidence to back up your allegations, Don Poncho, and it is beneath you to make such allegations. I got wise to Woodrow Wilson about 1965 when I did a research paper on him.

Your error, Don Poncho, is that while observing the news on the Russian incursion into the Ukraine with military fire, you equate the observation with the desire to become involved militarily.

Furthermore, Don Poncho, you have not presented any allegations that the Democrats are going to do anything whatsoever.

You got wise and decided to follow Wilson's philosophy anyways. I get it.

While observing the news on the alleged Russian incursion into Ukraine I noticed no one in Washington or the mainstream media or on Baptist Board was providing any evidence that would prove the allegations were true.

Evidence that YOU still have not provided even though I have asked you to provide it umpteen times now.

Just admit you don't have any evidence. It would be so much easier on you, me and the readers here than to have you keep turning logic on it's head to hide the fact that you cannot find any evidence to support the allegations you keep trying to pass of as fact.

It's not a matter of what the democrats will or will not do.

It's a matter of YOU providing evidence to support the allegations YOU keep posting as facts.

Just show us the evidence. All these mind games you're playing are wearing mighty thin. If you can't provide the evidence then be a man and admit it.

It's a simple matter. Either you can prove the allegations you keep posting as facts are true or you can't.

So far the only thing you have proven is that you would rather go on repeating the same unfounded allegations over and over and over as if the complete lack of supporting evidence doesn't matter while trying to turn logic on it's head rather than admit you cannot prove the allegations are true.

 

[InTheLight]

Pictures Reportedly Show Russian Armored Convoy Destroyed Near Donetsk
18:34 (GMT)

Dorozhny Kontrol (roadcontrol.org.ua), an online publication that usually covers traffic accidents and the GAI [Traffic Inspection], has published a report today, August 27 at 16:36, claiming that the Ukrainian army has attacked a Russian military convoy outside of Ilovaisk (map), destroying some BMDs, killing most of the paratroopers and taking some prisoners.

The report includes pictures (warning: graphic) that Dorozhny Kontrol says the Ukrainian forces provided to them. The pictures show the blue beret of the paratroopers, the label from a Kevlar vest manufactured in the Russian city of Kazan, a Ukrainian soldier holding up a VSS Vintorez (a rifle only used by Russian Spetsnaz), and the dead bodies of soldiers.

http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-187-convoy-begins-to-return-to-russia/

 

[poncho]

Finally! After two weeks of asking and asking and asking for it someone comes up with something that resembles evidence!

Wait. I thought the Russian media couldn't be trusted to tell the truth? Isn't that what you all have been telling me from the beginning? I guess that only holds true if the Russian media reports something that contradicts Washington's many allegations.

Okay so the "credible" thing to do is make an unfounded allegation and keep repeating it over and over and over until some evidence finally starts to trickle in even it comes from a source you have previously dismissed as being "a front for enemy propaganda".

Wow. It's hard to keep up with all y'all when you keep changing the rules without notice like this.

 

[InTheLight]

NOVOAZOVSK, Ukraine — Tanks, artillery and infantry have crossed from Russia into an unbreached part of eastern Ukraine in recent days, attacking Ukrainian forces and causing panic and wholesale retreat not only in this small border town but a wide swath of territory, in what Ukrainian and Western military officials described on Wednesday as a stealth invasion.

The attacks outside this city and in an area to the north essentially have opened a new, third front in the war in eastern Ukraine between government forces and pro-Russian separatists, along with the fighting outside the cities of Donetsk and Luhansk.

Exhausted, filthy and dismayed, Ukrainian soldiers staggering out of Novoazovsk for safer territory said Tuesday they were cannon fodder for the forces coming from Russia. As they spoke, tank shells whistled in from the east and exploded nearby.


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/28/world/europe/ukraine-russia-novoazovsk-crimea.html

 

[poncho]

Ukraine Says . . .

“I tell you they are Russians, but this is what proof I have,” said Sgt. Aleksei Panko, holding up his thumb and index finger to form a zero. Sergeant Panko estimated that about 60 armored vehicles crossed near Novoazovsk. “This is what happened: they crossed the border, took up positions and started shooting.”

The Ukrainian Vinnytsia brigade met the cross-border advance over the six miles of countryside separating Novoazovsk from the Russian border, but later retreated to the western edge of town along the Rostov-Mariupol highway, where soldiers were collapsed in exhaustion on the roadside. “This is now a war with Russia,” Sergeant Panko said.

Now that we're using Russian media as a "credible source" . . .

Ukraine officially recognizes Russian aid convoy as humanitarian

Ukraine Minister of Social Policy Lyudmila Denisova has signed an order officially recognizing the Russian convoy stuck at the border as humanitarian aid cargo of the International Committee of the Red Cross.

http://rt.com/news/180844-ukraine-recognizes-russia-humanitarian-aid/

 

[poncho]

NATO's secret armies - Daniele Ganser

This fascinating book shows how the CIA and the British secret service, in collaboration with the military alliance NATO and European military secret services, set up a network of clandestine anti-communist armies in Western Europe after World War II.

These secret soldiers were trained on remote islands in the Mediterranean and in unorthodox warfare centres in England and in the United States by the Green Berets and SAS Special Forces. The network was armed with explosives, machine guns and high-tech communication equipment hidden in underground bunkers and secret arms caches in forests and mountain meadows. In some countries the secret army linked up with right-wing terrorist who in a secret war engaged in political manipulation,…

Codenamed 'Gladio' ('the sword'), the Italian secret army was exposed in 1990 by Italian Prime Minister Giulio Andreotti to the Italian Senate, whereupon the press spoke of ''The best kept, and most damaging, political-military secret since World War II'' (Observer, 18. November 1990) and observed that ''The story seems straight from the pages of a political thriller.'' (The Times, November 19, 1990). Ever since, so-called 'stay-behind' armies of NATO have also been discovered in France, Spain, Portugal, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxemburg, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Switzerland, Austria, Greece and Turkey. They were internationally coordinated by the Pentagon and NATO and had their last known meeting in the NATO-linked Allied Clandestine Committee (ACC) in Brussels in October 1990.

http://libcom.org/history/natos-secret-armies-daniele-ganser


You wanted some evidence to back up my "allegation" CMG.

Here ya go. A whole book about the history of NATO's stay behind armies.

Code Name; Operation Gladio.

I'm sure you won't find it to your liking. :smilewinkgrin:

http://libcom.org/files/NATOs_secret_armies.pdf

I'm fairly sure you won't bother to read it. Just like you can't be bothered to read government documents and policy papers. Out of sight out of mind, right? "See no evidence, hear no evidence, provide no evidence." That seems to be your creed.