A Georgetown law professor just perfectly captured the absurdity of Confederate pride

[Zaac]

Dumb question: what will taking the stars and bars down from the SC state house accomplish? I'm serious. What will it do other than make some folks feel good? Explain to me how this will make race relations better?

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk

Perception is the key. If you are attempting to better race relations, it helps when you can get people to believe that you are actually listening to their grievances.

Flying a flag that is synonymous with the enslavement of one of the parties does NOT present a platform upon which to talk PERIOD.

 

[poncho]

What is offensive to many of us is to be continually accused of being wicked racists who are decedents of slave-holders. Slavery ended in 1865, we have had affirmative action and set-asides for minorities since at least the early 60's. And yet the race war goes on in the minds of some people. Give it up.

He'll give it up as soon as the next DNC smoke screen to cover the Obama administration's criminality comes out.

 

[carpro]

Funny how innocent symbols can be adopted for evil purposes.

The swastika was used by the U.S. Army's 45th division as a division insignia until the Nazi's adopted it.

The confederate flag was nothing more than a battle flag, a call to arms, until democrats began to use it as a symbol of their racist agenda.

 

[Zaac]

Lynching--'History and Analysis' by Wichita State University professor Dwight Murphey. 'The NAACP Crusade Against Lynching' by Robert Zangrando.

As I said before perhaps. I could only find one case.

"Benin president Matthieu Kerekou says intertribal hostility over the slave trade still exists. Many of his people have never seen descendants of their forebears who were shipped off to the Americas.
Kerekou attended the National Prayer Breakfast in Washington last February and sought African-American church leaders to whom he could apologize. The pastors offered forgiveness. As a result, 125 Western leaders will gather with tribal chiefs from across Benin for the reconciliation event."
Source

I don't defend slavery, and I think we can safely say that the majority of people in the US, black and white, are opposed to it.

What is offensive to many of us is to be continually accused of being wicked racists who are decedents of slave-holders.

Big freaking deal that some of you are offended. Blacks were offended when some of your Christian relatives sat back and allowed slavery to continue. Blacks were offended when some of your Christian relatives allowed Jim Crow to go on.

Blacks are offended at being told that unarmed black men are getting what they deserve after being murdered by police officers as Christians nod in affirmation.

Blacks are offended at being told that Blacks are more likely to commit certain crimes which is a statistical impossibility.

Blacks are offended at being called thugs and told that they are more violent than everybody else.

Blacks are offended at being told that we live in a post racial society.

Blacks are offended by stop and frisk.

So please be offended. Now you got a glimpse of what Black people deal with every day.

Slavery ended in 1865, we have had affirmative action and set-asides for minorities since at least the early 60's. And yet the race war goes on in the minds of some people.

Give it up.

So after 246 years of legal slavery in the United States up to 1865, another nearly 100 up to the "end of Jim Crow in 1965 and another 30 or 40 years of systemically incarcerating black males back into the new slavery, and police officers murdering unarmed Blacks left and right while the so-called followers of Christ ( just as they did during slavery and Jim Crow, nod their heads as though nothing is wrong), and when young white men have been indoctrinated to believe that Blacks are raping their women, and folks make comments like the one you just made, you wonder why the race war goes on in the minds of some people?

Yes white people would have Black people to give up just like the pharaoh wanted Moses to give up. Just like they wanted Martin to give up. Just like they wanted Malcolm to give up.

This brand of wickedness must be confronted by all who love Jesus.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Still doesn't matter. If they were not slave owners and were only fighting because they were made to fight, then it makes no sense for their ancestors to fly a flag that doesn't represent what they did.

What makes you think they were "made" to fight?

And, by your own logic, should we not honor soldiers who were drafted into WWII and Vietnam?

 

[JohnDeereFan]

John Deere Fan, you are correct. When southern towns and states put up Confederate memorials it was to honor their dead, nothing else. I am from a border state and we had people on both sides of the war. There were good and bad people on both sides.

I agree. The War of Yankee Aggression was a very nuanced war, which is why I have no patience for people who just parrot "Slavery! Slavery!" over and over.

There was even a unit from North Alabama that fought for the Union. And they are honored in Alabama, just a there are blacks who fought for the Confederacy and are honored, precisely because we're not idiots. We've thought about this. We understand that there are many more things than revisionist talking points to consider.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I assume you're referring to the area in which PHL airport is located and/or the Philly Naval Shipyards and/or the oil & gasoline refineries are located, right?? :smilewinkgrin:

To clarify, the Philadelphia Airport isn't in South Philly. It's in Delaware County to the west of Philadelphia. The Navy Yard, which I believe is all condos now, is about as South Philly as you can get, though.

I also remember there was a bar near the airport where we did a bunch of Parrothead events and that always had great bands. I can picture the place like it was yesterday but I can't remember the name of it.

 

[Lewis]

Blacks were offended when some of your Christian relatives sat back and allowed slavery to continue.

And as we've discussed, Africans sold Africans into slavery, and that's how they wound up here. But guess what, none of those who did such things are still living, and no white slave-holders are still living. Best to get over that.

Blacks are offended at being told that unarmed black men are getting what they deserve after being murdered by police officers as Christians nod in affirmation.

And as we've discussed, a lot more whites are killed by police than blacks.

Blacks are offended at being told that Blacks are more likely to commit certain crimes which is a statistical impossibility.

Why is that offensive or hard to believe? Statistics show that when women kill, they use poison more often than men do. Women are probably not offended by that statistic.

Blacks are offended at being called thugs and told that they are more violent than everybody else.

Well I don't know, but if you look at the violent videos Blacks post themselves on Youtube, one could easily get that impression. I hesitate to post links here, but there are plenty.

Blacks are offended by stop and frisk.

I've been stopped and frisked more than once in my life. I found that the way to avoid trouble is to not stay out late, and cooperate with the police. That way usually nobody gets hurt.

So please be offended. Now you got a glimpse of what Black people deal with every day.

Oh, ok Zaac .

 

[Lewis]

I agree. The War of Yankee Aggression was a very nuanced war, which is why I have no patience for people who just parrot "Slavery! Slavery!" over and over.

There was even a unit from North Alabama that fought for the Union. And they are honored in Alabama, just a there are blacks who fought for the Confederacy and are honored, precisely because we're not idiots. We've thought about this. We understand that there are many more things than revisionist talking points to consider.

Good points.

 

[Rolfe]

I ardently disagree with what he said. This is the United States of America. (...)

Saying we need to put down the American flag, IMO, is an act of aggression against the United States.

Thanks for answering.

If the United States is going to for 400+ years continue to treat Blacks and other people of color as second hand citizens economically, socially and legal system wise, then perhaps the United States does need to take a look at itself and exactly what the Constitution and the Declaration were supposed to mean.

The Untited States has has existed for less than 240 years. Beyond that, your beef is with England and France.

 

[Salty]

...There was even a unit from North Alabama that fought for the Union. ...

And Town Line, NY voted to join the CSA.
Note: Town Line in near Buffalo, NY.

 

[Zaac]

And as we've discussed, Africans sold Africans into slavery, and that's how they wound up here. But guess what, none of those who did such things are still living, and no white slave-holders are still living. Best to get over that.

Doesn't mean a thing as the folks who enslaved the Africans in the United States are white. We are talking about the Confederate Flag and what it means in the United States. Talking about how they got here is a red herring.

And as we've discussed, a lot more whites are killed by police than blacks.

How many more unarmed whites are killed by police?

Why is that offensive or hard to believe? Statistics show that when women kill, they use poison more often than men do. Women are probably not offended by that statistic.

It's offensive because statistically it's not true. There's a difference between who has ACTUALLY done something and the population at large.

Well I don't know, but if you look at the violent videos Blacks post themselves on Youtube, one could easily get that impression. I hesitate to post links here, but there are plenty.

What about the violent videos of Whites? Do you get the same impression of them? Whites by far commit more violent crime by number.

I've been stopped and frisked more than once in my life. I found that the way to avoid trouble is to not stay out late, and cooperate with the police. That way usually nobody gets hurt.

That's fine and good advice. But I'm telling ya, that's not the reality of most Blacks because a whole lot of them have been doing nothing but accosted by the police.

Oh, ok Zaac .

I'm just saying you're offended by me saying it. Blacks have to deal with multiple people and media outlets saying things against them all day every day.

 

[Lewis]

We all have to deal with things that are offensive and just plain tick us off. That is life for people of all colors. Sorry about that.

On the flag issue, here is a possible compromise: Federal, state, and local governments could put up memorials to commemorate folks who are esteemed by African-Americans. That way it's all inclusive.

Oh wait, we already have that. Every city in the country has a Martin Luther King monument, have named roads after him, and it's a Federal holiday. There are roads in several states dedicated to the Tuskegee Airmen or Rosa Parks. But the Rebel flag must come down.

I have driven through Atlanta rush hour traffic, and that could explain why some of you are so ill-tempered. I must remember that.:thumbs:

 

[poncho]

Rush hour in Nashville Tn is no fun either.

 

[Lewis]

Yes but I'd have to say Atlanta is worse.
Your mileage may vary...

 

[Zaac]

We all have to deal with things that are offensive and just plain tick us off. That is life for people of all colors. Sorry about that.

On the flag issue, here is a possible compromise: Federal, state, and local governments could put up memorials to commemorate folks who are esteemed by African-Americans. That way it's all inclusive.

Ain't nobody trying to be inclusive over this and you and anybody else in the Body of Christ who feels this way should be ashamed. Take the stupid flag and all of the stupid racist commemorating memorials down off government property and leave them down.

Oh wait, we already have that. Every city in the country has a Martin Luther King monument, have named roads after him, and it's a Federal holiday. There are roads in several states dedicated to the Tuskegee Airmen or Rosa Parks. But the Rebel flag must come down.

Yes.

I have driven through Atlanta rush hour traffic, and that could explain why some of you are so ill-tempered. I must remember that.:thumbs:

They're ill tempered because more and more of them are from up North. Just about half of the metro-Atlanta population was born outside of Georgia.

 

[Baptist Believer]

It depends. If you're talking about an ancestry that glorifies what those in the Confederacy wanted and stood for, then I wouldn't find it offensive.

Since I don't think anyone here is actually "glorifying" the slavery aspect of the Confederacy, your critique is completely unfounded.

Since you said "it depends," I'm assuming that you would be offended if one's heritage did not glorify slavery, then you are agreeing with my point that he was being "venomous" and disrespectful toward those who respect their heritage.

Full Disclosure: I am aware of one ancestor who had two slaves. That is all I have found on my family tree. I don't "glorify" the man, but see him as a person of his time. I have far more relatives who made their mark on history for fighting and public drunkenness. I don't "glorify" those people either. All of us come from mess-up backgrounds in one way or another.

I don't see a difference either. They were no better than the Nazis. That doesn't make his reply venomous.

There is quite a difference between Confederates and Nazis (as well as the German/Austrian populace and the Nazis), and if you don't know the difference, you are really not qualified to be a cultural or historical commentator on this subject. You are speaking in ignorance and cannot actually address the real issues or history related to this subject. Since you cannot address the real issues, you will not be able to change the minds of anyone who can see through your grade school understanding of the historical and social forces at work in the past and present.

Again we're talking about folks flying a treasonous flag that really came in to being because those Confederate states wanted to keep slaves. And if their ancestors fought for that, I don't have any respect for her ancestors either.

There was a difference between the U.S. before and after the Civil War in terms of how the states related to the federal government. The 14th Amendment - ratified after the Civil War - turned "these United States" into "THE United States. The amendment created citizens of the United States instead of just citizens of states. Therefore, future attempts at secession from the United States would be treasonous. Before that time, it was not a settled matter of law.

Certainly slavery was a major and obvious reason for secession, but it was hardly the only one. Moreover, as I pointed out earlier (but you declined to address), not all slave states joined the Confederacy and the states that did not join the Confederacy were not asked to release their slaves. Even the much praised Emancipation Proclamation did not free slaves in those areas - or any other areas that were actually under Lincoln's authority!

If the Civil War was truly all about slavery (the North being against it and the South being for it, as popularly thought about the historically ignorant), then the documents of the time would have been significantly different.

Make no mistake... slavery was an abomination and the Jim Crow laws that followed were evil as well. But that justified moral outrage does not justify outright condemnation of everyone who found themselves on the Confederate side.

How many of the people who were not on the Ally side are parading around displaying flags with swastikas on them though? I would venture not many if any because they know what that flag means.

Yes, and even more of them do not because their ancestors hated the Nazis but were caught up in the grand sweep of history.

Where are the folks who feel that their ancestors who participated in that atrocity deserve respect?

You realize that WWII was about more than the Holocaust, right? You also realize that not everyone who was German or Austrian participated in the Holocaust, right? I certainly hope you also know that Hitler and the Nazis were extremely harsh toward their own people and many of them ended up enslaved or murdered because of a perception of disloyalty, right?

It's a completely different situation.

 

[poncho]

Some of us are still scratching our heads trying to figure why all you people who now want to "tear down that flag" weren't all up in arms (or cans of spray paint) about it until one white lunatic that doesn't represent the majority of white people murdered those people in SC.

What were you all waiting for? The right crisis to go on your anti white, anti gun, anti confederate flag crusade? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yeA_kHHLow

How can all you anti white, anti gun, anti confederate flag folks justify your "dancing in the blood" of these unfortunate victims to move your political agenda forward?

Have you no shame or conscience?

 

[Zaac]

Since I don't think anyone here is actually "glorifying" the slavery aspect of the Confederacy, your critique is completely unfounded.

That's a bunch of bovine skeptology. Yall need to stop this mess. The flag is the flag of a slavery happy regime. If you fly it or approve of flying it , you're glorifying the slavery aspect of the Confederacy because that's what it was about.

Since you said "it depends," I'm assuming that you would be offended if one's heritage did not glorify slavery, then you are agreeing with my point that he was being "venomous" and disrespectful toward those who respect their heritage.

Nope. Because their heritage was hateful whether or not they want to accept it. If your heritage isn't hateful, then there's no need to fly that treasonous, hate-representing flag.

Full Disclosure: I am aware of one ancestor who had two slaves. That is all I have found on my family tree. I don't "glorify" the man, but see him as a person of his time. I have far more relatives who made their mark on history for fighting and public drunkenness. I don't "glorify" those people either. All of us come from mess-up backgrounds in one way or another.

I've got lots of ancestors who fought for the Confederacy too. But we are all well aware of what that flag represents.

There is quite a difference between Confederates and Nazis (as well as the German/Austrian populace and the Nazis), and if you don't know the difference, you are really not qualified to be a cultural or historical commentator on this subject. You are speaking in ignorance and cannot actually address the real issues or history related to this subject. Since you cannot address the real issues, you will not be able to change the minds of anyone who can see through your grade school understanding of the historical and social forces at work in the past and present.

The only difference is that white America values the lives of Jews while they marginalize the lives of Blacks.

And I don't need to change anybody's mind for truth to be truth.

There was a difference between the U.S. before and after the Civil War in terms of how the states related to the federal government. The 14th Amendment - ratified after the Civil War - turned "these United States" into "THE United States. The amendment created citizens of the United States instead of just citizens of states. Therefore, future attempts at secession from the United States would be treasonous. Before that time, it was not a settled matter of law.

It was treasonous. They were shown grace and mercy.

Certainly slavery was a major and obvious reason for secession, but it was hardly the only one. Moreover, as I pointed out earlier (but you declined to address), not all slave states joined the Confederacy and the states that did not join the Confederacy were not asked to release their slaves. Even the much praised Emancipation Proclamation did not free slaves in those areas - or any other areas that were actually under Lincoln's authority!

Stop the foolishness. The ONLY reason for secession was the economics of slavery.

If the Civil War was truly all about slavery (the North being against it and the South being for it, as popularly thought about the historically ignorant), then the documents of the time would have been significantly different.

Why?

Make no mistake... slavery was an abomination and the Jim Crow laws that followed were evil as well. But that justified moral outrage does not justify outright condemnation of everyone who found themselves on the Confederate side.

If they are flying a treasonous hate-representing flag, it sure does.

Yes, and even more of them do not because their ancestors hated the Nazis but were caught up in the grand sweep of history.

So that doesn't leave much room for the ancestors of the folks who fought for the Confederacy, because they were forced to, fly that flag.

You realize that WWII was about more than the Holocaust, right?

Did I say otherwise?

You also realize that not everyone who was German or Austrian participated in the Holocaust, right?

Did I say otherwise?

I certainly hope you also know that Hitler and the Nazis were extremely harsh toward their own people and many of them ended up enslaved or murdered because of a perception of disloyalty, right?

Did I say otherwise?

It's a completely different situation.

Yes the color of the skin of the people being murdered changed.

 

[Salty]

Excellent post Bap Bel!