Free-will, Lucifer and God

[AndThisGospel]

"God allowed sin (i.e., self-love or iniquity) for a purpose and that purpose was to fully expose [it] for what it is - a deceiver."

"Thus the history of this terrible experiment of rebellion (i.e, "the working out of Satan's rule") was to be a perpetual safeguard all of God's creation, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of sin."

 

[AndThisGospel]

The working out of Satan's rule
​

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

 

[GenevanBaptist]

Ez 28:14 “You (Lucifer) were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. 15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you."

God states that His creation of this covering cherub, Lucifer, was "the seal of perfection". How then did Lucifer come to have "iniquity" in him since God, in His sovereignty, created him perfect?

Lucifer was never meant to be applied as an example of how Satan fell. That was the name of the star that arose right before the Sun arose to whom Ol' Nebuchadnezzar is compared, not Satan at all - for the name Lucifer was what men called the planet Venus back in previous centuries. Since we know that scripture teaches by the Lords own mouth that Satan was evil since the beginning, how come men choose to make of him greater than he is, which is a liar and a deceiver and the father of those things?

 

[AndThisGospel]

...scripture teaches by the Lords own mouth that Satan was evil since the beginning....

You are referring to John 8:44 where Jesus said "He was a murderer from the beginning"....

Question: What beginning?

1. From the creation of the "anointed cherub who covers" or
2. From his fall?

If # 1 then God is the originator and creator of sin.

If # 2 then God is not the creator of sin, but rather He created this cherub perfect and then this angel revolted and became God's adversary.

 

[AndThisGospel]

You are referring to John 8:44 where Jesus said "He was a murderer from the beginning"....

Question: What beginning?

1. From the creation of the "anointed cherub who covers" or
2. From his fall?

If # 1 then God is the originator and creator of sin.

If # 2 then God is not the creator of sin, but rather He created this cherub perfect and then this angel revolted and became God's adversary.

# 2 suggests that God created Lucifer perfect in righteousness, but with a free-will. Lucifer chose to rebel....

# 1 suggest that God doesn't allow free-will and created a devil just because He willed it. In this case Lucifer had no will and was doing God's will by being a devil. This is classic Calvinism.

 

[AndThisGospel]

Again, God - in His sovereignty - created a sinless cherub knowing that this angel would revolt against His agape love and seek to establish his own type of love, known as self-love.

Some might ask, "what's so bad about self-love?"

First, God's law calls it sin.

Go to Gal 5:14

For the whole law can be summed up in a single commandment, namely, “You must love your neighbor as you love yourself.”

Self-love is a given. We are "born in iniquity" (Ps 51:5), that is, we are born knowing only self-love.

God's law demands that we take this self-love and instead of loving self, love our neighbors instead. That means we are turn our self-love away from ourselves and project it to our neighbors instead.

Can I give some Bible verses to back this up? Yes:

"Let no man seek his own (wealth), but every man another's wealth." 1 Cor 10:24

“If you want to be perfect (righteous), go and sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor..." Matt 19:21

"Sell your possessions and give to the poor." Luke 12:33

"Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back...if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:30,34-35

If I really loved my neighbor as I naturally love myself then my neighbor would have my possessions. That's agape love....

 

[AndThisGospel]

God love, agape, ..."is not self-seeking" 1 Cor 13:5

Lucifer took God's "agape" and bent-it-around towards self. His invention was self-love.

Self-love sounds wonderful. In fact there's a song about self-love. Watch the following video; the singer makes it sound like the best thing since sliced bread:

I believe the children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be

Everybody's searching for a hero
People need someone to look up to
I never found anyone who fulfilled my needs
A lonely place to be
And so I learned to depend on me

[Chorus:]
I decided long ago, never to walk in anyone's shadows
If I fail, if I succeed
At least I'll live as I believe
No matter what they take from me
They can't take away my dignity
Because the greatest love of all
Is happening to me
I found the greatest love of all
Inside of me
The greatest love of all
Is easy to achieve
Learning to love yourself
It is the greatest love of all

I believe the children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be

[Chorus]

And if, by chance, that special place
That you've been dreaming of
Leads you to a lonely place
Find your strength in love
​

 

[AndThisGospel]

This is why God allowed "the love of self" (iniquity) to be developed. It sounds wonderful. Learning to love yourself, wow! Sounds great....

Well...on paper it sounds simply wonderful, but when self-love is put into practice what happens? Does it bring peace and stability, does it bring prosperity? No! It produces ruin & misery...

God allowed Lucifer, turned Satan. to develop his principles of self-love so that God's future creation of free-will beings would never, ever be tempted to fall for anything outside God's agape love. He allowed iniquity so that free-will beings in the future would be able to look at the history of what happens when one questions and rebesl against God's agape love, the foundation of His government.

Hence, it is said that unrighteousness will never happen again because all free-will beings, made in God's image and likeness, will never chose to question God's agape ever again...

 

[MennoSota]

The working out of Satan's rule
​

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

Where do we find the "principle of self?" Or...is that one of your self-made terms? [emoji57]

 

[MennoSota]

You are referring to John 8:44 where Jesus said "He was a murderer from the beginning"....

Question: What beginning?

1. From the creation of the "anointed cherub who covers" or
2. From his fall?

If # 1 then God is the originator and creator of sin.

If # 2 then God is not the creator of sin, but rather He created this cherub perfect and then this angel revolted and became God's adversary.

Wait! What? You mean context can qualify the word beginning? I wonder if context can qualify the word "all" as well? Hmmm....

 

[MennoSota]

God love, agape, ..."is not self-seeking" 1 Cor 13:5

Lucifer took God's "agape" and bent-it-around towards self. His invention was self-love.

Self-love sounds wonderful. In fact there's a song about self-love. Watch the following video; the singer makes it sound like the best thing since sliced bread:

I believe the children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be

Everybody's searching for a hero
People need someone to look up to
I never found anyone who fulfilled my needs
A lonely place to be
And so I learned to depend on me

[Chorus:]
I decided long ago, never to walk in anyone's shadows
If I fail, if I succeed
At least I'll live as I believe
No matter what they take from me
They can't take away my dignity
Because the greatest love of all
Is happening to me
I found the greatest love of all
Inside of me
The greatest love of all
Is easy to achieve
Learning to love yourself
It is the greatest love of all

I believe the children are our future
Teach them well and let them lead the way
Show them all the beauty they possess inside
Give them a sense of pride to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be

[Chorus]

And if, by chance, that special place
That you've been dreaming of
Leads you to a lonely place
Find your strength in love
​

I like the George Benson version better. Whitney's copy is alright though. [emoji41]

 

[AndThisGospel]

Where do we find the "principle of self?"[emoji57]

Keep in mind Satan is called "the god of this world"....Therefore the world is based on his love of self.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh (the desires of human nature) and the lust of the eyes (what it sees it wants) and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.

2 Tim 3:2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, 4 treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

Paul also tells us that "love (agape)...is not self-seeking" 1 Cor 13:5 Self-seeking is based on self or the principle of self.

 

[AndThisGospel]

I like the George Benson version better. Whitney's copy is alright though. [emoji41]

If you like these lyrics then you need to heed the instruction of John: "Love not the world" because everything in the world is based on self-love and not God's agape.

 

[MennoSota]

If you like these lyrics then you need to heed the instruction of John: "Love not the world" because everything in the world is based on self-love and not God's agape.

I take it you're a vegan...[emoji41]

Do you ever stop to think your logic through to finality?

By your own logic you should be dead from starvation due to refusing to love the world.

Of course you don't carry your thoughts to their end point because they are ultimately not true.

 

[MennoSota]

Keep in mind Satan is called "the god of this world"....Therefore the world is based on his love of self.

So...there is no "principle of self-love," there is only your strange illogical correlation...got it.

 

[ChrisTheSaved]

"Lucifer" means "bringer of light."

Satan is the Prince of Darkness. Ephesians 6:12.

Anyone who can't tell the difference is very, very confused.

Thank you my head was fixing to explode! This showcases the importance of #1 Experience and #2 Seminary Education.

Lucifer was mistranslation from the Vulgate carried over, wasn't it?

Was not a mistranslation. "helel" can be tricky to translate so New King James authors just stole the word from Jerome, which as we all know was Latin.

Why does it matter? Let's say his or its name was George! The point is God created an angel that was perfect and without sin. Take it from there...

Context, Context and Context. If most lay person think lucifer is the Devil and he is not, its misused then it's not right.

Context is your friend.

Ezekiel 28:2 “Son of man, tell the prince of Tyre, ‘Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “Because your heart is lifted up, and you have said, ‘I am a god, I sit in the seat of God, in the middle of the seas;’ yet you are man, and not God, though you set your heart as the heart of God.

Isaiah 14:16 Those who see you will stare at you. They will ponder you, saying, “Is this the man who made the earth to tremble, who shook kingdoms;

Yes it is. It seems that this is a big problem when people start to read the Bible. You gotta read the whole thing or at least the whole book. And then you need to read more than one commentary or source on said book.

"Lucifer" is a man.

Yes he was, but stop capitalizing it as its not a title but a description! I'm fat but I'm not Fat. Its just not a name.

I'm rolling my eyes...

Why? You lack a great deal of information. Nothing wrong with that my friend. I would suggest Moody Bible Institutes Certificate programs. They have multiple ones and are very cheap.

https://www.moody.edu/moody-bible-i...ing/continuing-education/personal-enrichment/

https://www.moody.edu/moody-bible-i...ing/continuing-education/personal-enrichment/
You will walk away and educated man! If I had it to do over I doubt I would have done a BRS and MATS. I think I would have done a full Moody certificate program.

OT kings of Babylon:

Nabopolassar 625-605 BC
Nabu-kudurri-usur II (Nebuchadnezzar) 605-562 BC
Amel-Marduk (Evil-merodach) 561-560 BC
Nergal-shar-usur (Neriglissar) 559-556 BC
Labashi-Marduk 556-556 BC
Nabu-naid (Nabonidus) 555-539 BC
Bel-sharra-usur (Belshazzar) 552-542 BC
http://www.bible-history.com/old-testament/babylonian-kings.html

IMO, all terrestrial manifestations of the celestial 'king of Babylon'.

Once more context is key, so when was Ahaz ruling? well we have a good idea it was mid 700's BC, maybe 730 BC..idk. Babylon was the seat of Assyria bro during that time, your looking at Neo-Babylon dates.

 

[TCassidy]

Its just not a name.

I don't what to throw a monkey wrench into the discussion, but הילל (heylel) is a masculine, singular, absolute which usually indicates a proper noun (name). In this case it is the name of the morning star which we call Venus today, as it is here also called בן שׁחר ben-shachar (sun of the dawn).

So, I don't have a problem with capitalizing the proper noun just as we capitalize Mars, Jupiter, etc. I just have a problem with people who have little to no understanding of who is being addressed here, and it is not Satan. It is clearly used sarcastically to address the king of Babylon who thinks of himself as the brightest of the bright, rivaling even the sun itself, as Venus, the morning star, does just before sun up.

 

[AndThisGospel]

I just have a problem with people who have little to no understanding of who is being addressed here, and it is not Satan.

Well no kidding, but he is being compared to Lucifer and then Satan. So Ezekiel gives us insights into the fall of Lucifer.

It is clearly used sarcastically to address the king of Babylon who thinks of himself as the brightest of the bright, rivaling even the sun itself, as Venus, the morning star, does just before sun up.

This is mighty good fiction. Mind if I slip out and get a bag of popcorn and a coke?

The lengths that the Calvinist will go to make non-effect anything that looks like free-will. Wow....

 

[ChrisTheSaved]

I don't what to throw a monkey wrench into the discussion, but הילל (heylel) is a masculine, singular, absolute which usually indicates a proper noun (name). In this case it is the name of the morning star which we call Venus today, as it is here also called בן שׁחר ben-shachar (sun of the dawn).

So, I don't have a problem with capitalizing the proper noun just as we capitalize Mars, Jupiter, etc. I just have a problem with people who have little to no understanding of who is being addressed here, and it is not Satan. It is clearly used sarcastically to address the king of Babylon who thinks of himself as the brightest of the bright, rivaling even the sun itself, as Venus, the morning star, does just before sun up.

Although I said it was not a mistranslation on Jerome's part, I was write in saying that but he could have used a better Latin word then Venus. Modern scholars know that a more fitting translation would be, "morning star" or even "light bearer" Read Dr. Youngblood's article, Fallen Star. I provide you a excerpt......

"The original Hebrew of Isaiah 14:12 reads helel ben-shahar. Scholars agree that ben-shahar means "son of the dawn." Modern translations of Isaiah render helel as "shining one," "day star," "morning star" and so on. The Septuagint, an early Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, rendered it as heosphoros, "dawn-bringer." In the late fourth century, when Jerome made his Latin translation of the Bible, known as the Vulgate, he followed suit and translated helel as lucifer, which is not a proper name but a common noun (note the lowercase 1) meaning simply "light-bearer." Both the Greek and Latin terms refer to the morning star, usually identified as Venus."

http://ezproxy.liberty.edu/login?ur...liberty.edu/docview/214716404?accountid=12085

I'm stuck on the description or name aspect. Dr. Nettles in a lecture told me that it was not a name. Dr. Wheeler states the same, not a name, as does Youngblood and many more. I suck at Hebrew but excel at Latin and Greek. Perhaps that's a bit much lol, I am mediocre? That sounds far more humble.

I am no pro in OT prophets either. You probably have a better education and more experience than me as well.

 

[AndThisGospel]

...Dr. Nettles....Dr. Wheeler...Youngblood .

I suggest skipping these middle men and going straight to the source, i.e, the Bible.