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Featured When translations are older...

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by GenevanBaptist, Feb 25, 2017.

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  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Happy 15th!

    Great book if you are interested in the History behind the KJV.
     
    #21 TCassidy, Feb 25, 2017
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  2. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    Thanks for the endorsement. I was trying to google up some reviews on my phone in the store, but my search results were heavily secular, not what I would call trustworthy.
     
    #22 Rob_BW, Feb 25, 2017
  3. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    A good read that explains the politics and the philosophy of the translation.
     
    #23 rsr, Feb 25, 2017
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  4. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    I've read Trevor Royle's history The Civil War: The Wars of the Three Kingdoms, and hope that this will serve as a sort of prequel.
     
    #24 Rob_BW, Feb 25, 2017
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Right in the sense that both are close enough to the original text to be considered to be accurate and the original text...

    lets say one said Give thanks always to the lord Jesus christ, other said just Jesus Christ, think both mean same thing!
     
    #25 Yeshua1, Feb 28, 2017
  6. Archie the Preacher

    Archie the Preacher Member

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    This is a rather oversimplified question, so I'll answer it in a simplified manner.

    Generally, an 'older' manuscript is closer to the original. One can have a later copy which is errant; or a copy of a manuscript translated into another language (the Peshitta, for instance) from an 'older' manuscript which is correct. But one cannot have a copy of an 'errant' document which is somehow correct.

    One looks to the current English version as more accurate, as the words are 'correct' in the modern or current meanings. For instance, some 'older' translations use the word 'meat' where the original word - in Hebrew or Greek - means 'food'. Another great misunderstanding is the Sixth (in the Talmud) Commandment. It is translated in 'older' translations as "Thou shalt not kill" causing no end of confusion about 'killing' in war or self-defense. "You will not commit murder" is a much more correct translation in current English.

    Not to mention the English word 'gay' has undergone some alterations in meaning since the early 1960s. It just isn't the same any more.

    Just for the record, the English language version(s) probably will need to be 're-translated' in another few years to address the changes in the English language between now and then.

    I would further point out God protects His message. Minor changes in word order or spelling or such are not as problematic as changes in the actual message. However, either God takes care of His message, OR, He doesn't or He cannot. I find the latter concept rather futile.

    That is what is known as an opinion. By what standard are the 'oldest English translations' more reliable? More reliable than what or which 'newer' translations? Are they more reliable than the original texts?
    I think I get it. If the modern translation doesn't match up - to what extent? - to the older (claimed to be by Genevan Baptist) more reliable translation, then it is 'unreliable'?

    Is the newer translation 'unreliable' if it doesn't match word for word, or if the meaning has been changed?
     
    #26 Archie the Preacher, Feb 28, 2017
  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    So you don't want an accurate bible? Just a "close enough" bible?

    Nobody is contesting that. But what about changing Son to God? "Only begotten Son" or "Only begotten God." Is making God a begotten being "close enough" for you?
     
    #27 TCassidy, Feb 28, 2017
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I would take either choice their, as jesus is THE unique Son of God, and is also God!
    Esv/Nasb/Nkjv are all accurate versions to me!
     
    #28 Yeshua1, Feb 28, 2017
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    So, which one is correct? Is God a created being? Was God "begotten?" If so, by whom? And who was God before God was begotten?

    Yes, we all know that. But "accurate" to what extent? Did Isaiah write both Isaiah and Jeremiah?
     
    #29 TCassidy, Feb 28, 2017
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Only Begorren means that whatever Jesus was/is , he is the same "stuff" as God was/is, not JW, a created being!

    And all of those I listed are accurate enough to be the word of God to us in English now!
     
    #30 Yeshua1, Feb 28, 2017
  11. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Does anybody know anything about these 'Hebrew-Spanish-Cretian-earliest-copies-of-the-NT-spread-when-pentacost-occured' manuscripts being touted by GenevanBaptist?
     
    #31 Jerome, Feb 28, 2017
  12. GenevanBaptist

    GenevanBaptist Member

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    Maybe you shoulda read this last part of my original post?

    "It's not about the 'oldest Greek' - it's really about the more accurate way of 'more witnesses' to show that the Greek you use is accurate, regardless of its age."

    As my words about Spanish and Cretian were just examples of other languages, I didn't actually think about whether their were such manuscripts in those particular languages.

    Since there are some Greek manuscripts that are incomplete or lack some words or verses in them, the translators of the older English Bibles did look into other language manuscripts/scriptures to compare the text to the Greek to see what was missing or lacking.

    Just read some title pages and prefaces and you will see phrases such as -

    "Conferred diligently with the Greek, and best approved translations in diverse languages"

    And in the KJV's 'to the reader', they stress the fact that they didn't refuse any other language manuscript or scriptures as source material for helping determining what scripture said for sure in English. (Page 10, par. 1)

    The translators of the KJV said -

    "Neither did we think much to consult the Translators or Commentators, Chaldee, Hebrew, Syrian, Greek or Latin, no nor the Spanish, French, Italian, or Dutch..."

    They looked where they found accuracy.
     
    #32 GenevanBaptist, Feb 28, 2017
  13. banana

    banana Member
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    It's simple, the oldest English translations aren't based on the oldest manuscripts.

    Scholars look at different languages if the manuscripts are older.
     
    #33 banana, Feb 28, 2017
  14. GenevanBaptist

    GenevanBaptist Member

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    Yes. But they did use the most complete manuscripts - and ones the faithful followers of our Lord used and recopied for centuries. Catholic monks are not the only ones who recopied manuscripts. And accuracy was much more important to a believer than a works oriented lost monk.
     
    #34 GenevanBaptist, Feb 28, 2017
  15. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Please satisfy my curiosity. Who do you think were the "faithful followers of our Lord" who produced the manuscripts upon which Erasmus based his Greek text?

    Since Erasmus relied primarily on Minuscule 2815 (produced by the Dominicans) and Minuscule 1 (also in the custody of the Dominicans), at what point were they transcribed by "faithful followers"? Did the Dominicans just happen to end up with the proper manuscripts?
     
    #35 rsr, Feb 28, 2017
  16. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    It is common to refer to the ancient translations as witnesses, particularly the Syriac and Old Latin, although the surviving manuscripts are older than the Great Uncials in Greek.

    (Correction: What I meant to say was the the surviving translations, generally speaking, are NO older than the Great Uncials in Greek.)

    This gives cover for Erasmus' decision to back-translate from the Latin Vulgate verses missing from his manuscript of Revelation. As Edward F. Hills says:

     
    #36 rsr, Feb 28, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2017
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  17. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Possibly in Greek? While there have been some theories that a few of the books were not in Greek originally, that has always been a minority opinion.

    "Yet they understood when 'pentacost' occured that the earliest copies of the NT were most likely spread in multiple languages around the globe." is either metaphorical or hyperbolic because 1. There were no NT books at the time of Pentecost and 2. There was no need for dozens of different languages early on because Greek, Latin and Syrian sufficed for the vast majority of the Mideast and Europe. The Roman church, for example, used Greek until the third century.
     
    #37 rsr, Feb 28, 2017
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Interesting that those holding to the superior Kjv base that upon text sources of the church of Rome, such as Greek text of Eramus and the Vulgate!
     
    #38 Yeshua1, Mar 1, 2017
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    ONLY one that I ever read about was that Matthew night have been penned in Aramaic originally?
     
    #39 Yeshua1, Mar 1, 2017
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Is that the main reason against Critical text, as the sources used were compiled/from Catholic monks
     
    #40 Yeshua1, Mar 1, 2017
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