I'm not sure if this is what Van was trying to show but listen to what Matthew is saying. He is saying that the Pharisees are preventing people from entering the Kingdom of Heaven because of their false teaching on righteousness through works of the Law. If the Pharisees are "preventing" them from entering because they are misleading them, it would indicate that they otherwise could enter in. I'm not sure which version you are quoting but most say something more in line with (my quote) "you don't let others who are entering (or wanting to enter) from entering."
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Total Depravity vs Free Will
- Thread starter tyndale1946
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I'm not sure if this is what Van was trying to show but listen to what Matthew is saying. He is saying that the Pharisees are preventing people from entering the Kingdom of Heaven because of their false teaching on righteousness through works of the Law. If the Pharisees are "preventing" them from entering because they are misleading them, it would indicate that they otherwise could enter in. I'm not sure which version you are quoting but most say something more in line with (my quote) "you don't let others who are entering (or wanting to enter) from entering."
You present a God who is too weak to overcome the Pharisees. Is this your intention?
Yes. 1 Corinthians 2:14.
Yes.
They don't. If they did they would be regenerate.
Uh, no, I didn't. If they see and understand they are regenerate.
According to 2 Corinthians 2:14.
No.
So do I. Only the gift of God's Grace can regenerate. Trying to add your own works nullifies Grace.
Exactly. If there is anything you can do, it would nullify Grace. Regeneration is all of God, none of you. God's Grace is sufficient. He doesn't need our help to save us.
We must be regenerated by the Grace of God, which gives us life, enabling us to believe, repent, and obey, which results in the more abundant life of the believer. John 10:10.
That's your problem. You are looking at it backward.
I actually answered my own question in my own post and the answer was in Romans. Let's look at your answer, with your translation.
Vs 1 Death was the result of our disobedience
Vs 2 The devil was at work in "those who refuse to obey God"
Vs 3 Says that our nature subjected us to God's anger
Vs 4 But God is rich in mercy and he loved us.
Vs 5 says God gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. This goes with Col 2:13-14. We actually gained life when what killed us was nailed to the Cross. Truly it is only by God's grace that we are saved and not because we have done something to earn it.
Vs 6 God raised us up from the dead and seated us with Christ because we are united with Christ
Vs 7 here Paul is clearly shows that this is being done for our benefit. We are the future ages that he was talking about.
Vs 8 Clearly shows that God saved us when we believed, not in order to believe.
Vs 9 shows that the gift that we can't take credit for is salvation
Vs 10 shows that God has created us new in Christ Jesus, not in order to be in Christ Jesus.
I like your version, it supports everything I have said and nothing you have said.
I'm presenting the scripture. It does not say God is too weak to do it but it does show God let's it be done. The weakness lies in the people, not God. Is the Light of God too weak to overcome the darkness of our hearts? Are you willing to say God was too weak to create Adam to where he could not sin, or did God create Adam where he could sin? Is God too weak to renew us perfectly or does he choose not to? I do not know why God does things the way he does, but it sure isn't because he is weak.
That's your problem. You are looking at it backward.
Paul was a Hebrew, sometimes he wrote backward. Seriously though, Paul was explaining it by back tracking. He actually said it backward and it makes more sense reading it backwards.
Yes but vs 6 shows that he is talking about wisdom for the mature.
Yes. The mature Christian has access to and knowledge of Godly wisdom.
The lost man does not receive Godly wisdom, cannot know Godly wisdom, believes such spiritual things are foolish, he cannot even know them, because they require the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which he lacks.
Okay, let's deal with your statement.
Romans 10:15 And how will they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the Good News of peace, who bring glad tidings of good things!”
Preachers must be sent all over the world. You and I agree on that.
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in him whom they have not heard? How will they hear without a preacher?
They must call on Jehovah as Messiah/Savior. They must come to understand that Jesus is Jehovah. And the Gospel is the means by which God has ordained that people hear, understand, and believe. That requires a preacher.
Rom 10:13 For, “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
So, the preacher preaches, the people hear, the Gospel draws, and the believer will call on Jesus/Jehovah and be saved.
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him.
Jews and Gentiles together, one in Christ. All receiving the same inheritance.
But I don't see how any of this answers the questions, Who can believe? Who does God give this grace?
Surely you are not suggesting that everybody who hears the Gospel preached will be saved, are you?
I am not sure what you are getting at.
Uh, no, I didn't. I never said the lost understand and see spiritual truth.
It is simple - total spiritual inability is fake doctrine. They were in the process of entering. Thus they had some spiritual ability. And, to carry that thought farther, they were not being compelled by irresistible grace because they were blocked. Thus Matthew 23:13 demonstrates that total spiritual inability (the T of the TULIP) is fake doctrine, and that the I of the TULIP is also fake doctrine.
Thanks
HankD
Do you realize you are arguing for total depravity?
Matthew 23:13 is not a verse by which you build your theology. When you take one verse and ignore context to build a doctrine, it is quite sure that the doctrine will crumble because it has nothing of substance. Are you sure you wish to stake your theology on this verse, which you twist to make it say what you want it to say?
"We can't know who is elect and who is not."
We know who is elect or not, scripture says its OBVIOUS. Even non-believers can know if your elect or not.
1 John 3
10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
John 13
34“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
1 john 4
7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
Now if your just self-proclaimed elect or a pretty good guess so or that rock bottom holy spirit came........ where your certainly elect and unsure about other folks, There is certain authority you are responsible for.
If you had a car and a license few miles away from food, your not going decide well I'm not going to use the car and starve to death. Or like Parable of the talents not going to use what you claim to have.
Jesus Christ sends you in same manner God the Father sent him.
John 20
21So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.” 22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
Romans 8
15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
If someone is not elect just let me know and I'll write you a receipt. Now if you don't think I got the authority to do that......well then you do it, You got the car and the license.
Yet another change the subject question. Total Spiritual Inability is fake doctrine. Did I say anything about meriting salvation? Nope
Did I say we were not made sinner from conception? Nope
Did I say salvation is accomplished by something other than the grace of God? Nope
The defense of fake doctrine is to change the subject, insinuate the opponent holds unbiblical views, and question the opponents workmanship in rightly handling the Word of God.
Does 1 Corinthians 3:1 say Paul spoke to newborn Christians as if they were men of flesh using spiritual milk? Obviously men of flesh can understand spiritual milk. Therefore the "T" of the TULIP is fake doctrine.
But I don't see how any of this answers the questions, Who can believe? Who does God give this grace?
Surely you are not suggesting that everybody who hears the Gospel preached will be saved, are you?
I am not sure what you are getting at.
No, I am not suggesting that everybody who hears the gospel preached will be saved.
Vs 12 "bestowing his riches on all who call on him."
What are God's riches? It is the riches of his grace. Who does he bestow them on? all who call on him. Hearing the gospel preached does not save you, but you cannot be saved apart from the gospel. The gospel is the power of salvation only for those who believe. Apart from the gospel we are totally depraved, i.e. no ability to do anything to save ourselves. So back to the story. How can we call on one we haven't believed in? We can't. How can we believe in one we haven't heard about? We can't. This must mean if we hear about him we can believe, and if we believe we can call out to him, and if we call out to him, he will bestow his riches on us. But let me be clear. Calling out to him is only in response to him reaching out to us. I do not believe that we initiate anything nor is God responding to us. God has already made the first move, all we can do is respond to him. If we have to be regenerated first, and even then belief has to be given to us, I don't see how the gospel has any power at all.
I find it difficult sometimes to express things in a short answer and I know it is easy to make assumptions about peoples beliefs. Some beliefs are tied to other beliefs but there is not enough time for me to talk about all of it. One of the "some Calvinists" I talked about earlier said that "Calvinism is the gospel" and that if I don't believe in Calvinism my faith is futile. I hope this is not the case with the ones I am speaking with now. I believe in the one true gospel and whether I do because God gave me the ability or because he forced me to makes no difference to me. It does not change the gospel that saves me.
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