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FBs came later,
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Neo-evangelicalism
- Thread starter HankD
- Start date
The early dispensationalists like Darby and Irving and others were all Calvinists although their the children US Evangelicals and FBs are all anti Calvinist. Strange.
Also strange is that many US churches state it in their Declaration of Faith when it is only an interpretation and a a relatively modern one at that.
Also strange is that many US churches state it in their Declaration of Faith when it is only an interpretation and a a relatively modern one at that.
Some of the most famous Presbyterian pastors/teachers of late 1800's/early 1900's were pre mil, and while not full dispy, did see Israel still had a Promise from God!
If that is what he is suggesting I recommend the books "History of Fundamentalism in America" and "Fight for Fundamentalism" by Dr. George W. Dollar. (Dr. Dollar had been Chairman of the Department of Church History at Dallas Seminary and was Dean of Central Baptist Seminary when I was a student there, and we remained friends until his passing in 2006.)
I would add to Dr. Dollar's books, David O. Beale's In Pursuit of Purity: American Fundamentalism Since 1850
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So did the Brethren. Some even to Exclusivity. One of our deacons family came from an Exclusive Brethren background. As a child he used to visit his grandparents every Wednesday after school, but when he got to the age of 13 his grandmother said he couldn't visit anymore as he wasn't a member of their assembly.
No that is not what I was suggesting. I was saying that he was the main force behind the expansion of dispensational futurism.
Yes. Dr. Dollar focused more on Baptist Fundamentalism while David Beale looked at the broader picture of all of Interdenominational Protestant Fundamentalism. Both are excellent histories of American Fundamentalism while focusing on different branches of that movement in America. (Although I do have some reservations concerning some of what Brother Beale recounts.)
Dr. Dollar's books would certainly help out this Brit, that's for sure!
You still don't quite have it right. What I was saying is that New Evangelicals thought fundamentalists to be wrong on ecclesiastical separation. (Do you know what that is as opposed to personal separation?) NE's believed in a strategy of infiltration with liberals, trying to win them by making friends with them. Fundamentalists disagreed, separating from them.
What you are talking about here is called secondary separation (not personal or ecclesiastical separation), and some fundamentalists practice it, but many fundamentalists disagree with it, so much so that in the fall of 1971 there was a split between two main factions of fundamentalism (Bob Jones Jr. vs. John R. Rice) over the issue (and other issues).
Are you aware that many New Evangelicals are dispensationalists, and quite a few fundamentalists are not? Dispensationalism and fundamentalism are overlapping circles in evangelicalism, but not the same subset.
Also, there is no need to say "dispensational futurism." Dispensationalists (including hyper- and progressive) are always futurists, without exception.
All sorts of sects are dispensational. After Presbyterians AOG were one of the early US sects that accepted the new teaching.
Yes but all futurists are not dispensational.
The books of Philip Mauro are on the preterist site, but I consider him to be a futurist because he considered Anitchrist to be future. He was one of the early followers in the US, some of his books when he was a dispi from about 1908, are on the site.
Relevance to the thread?
Um, yes, I've already noted on this thread that first generation fundamentalist John R. Rice was not a dispensationalist.
He was historical premil.You appear to have a rather large bee in your bonnet about dispensationalism. However, this thread is not about that, but about New Evangelicalism. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you appear to know next to nothing about that subject.
If by FB you mean Fundamental Baptist, I fail to see your point re the Brethren.
But yes, the Fundamental Baptist movement began in the South of the US in the 1930's with John R. Rice (my grandfather) and J. Frank Norris, and in the North later on with men like Monroe Parker (a mentor of mine) and Richard Clearwaters pulling out of the Northern Baptists and then the Conservative Baptists, forming my mission board and the FBF.
Yep. The great Fundamental Baptist Triumvirate. W.B. Riley. T.T. Shields. J. Frank Norris (did you ever notice these guys never seemed to have first names? ).
And the close associates. Richard Clearwaters (W.B. Riley's assistant at First Baptist, Minneapolis, and my mentor and teacher), Bob Shaker (mentored by T. T. Shields, but in an unusual sort of way). And, of course JRR being closely associated with J. Frank Norris in the early years.
In these cases the second generation seemed to accomplish more than the main characters.
Clearwaters was instrumental in founding much of Northern Baptist Fundamentalism, and (at the time) the two educational flagships, Pillsbury Baptist Bible College (my wife's alma mater) and Central Baptist Seminary (where I attended initially).
Shaker, while not a preacher, owned a book store in Toronto and helped countless preachers build reference libraries and served as mentor to hundreds of Baptist preachers, mostly in Canada.
John R. Rice founded The Sword of the Lord which was the largest circulated Christian publication in the world for many years. He also was an early mentor of Billy Graham and tried, unfortunately in vain, to guide Billy away from the ecumenical evangelism which characterized his later ministry.
We have an amazing history if we are just willing to study it. We stand on the shoulders of some remarkable men.
). And the close associates. Richard Clearwaters (W.B. Riley's assistant at First Baptist, Minneapolis, and my mentor and teacher), Bob Shaker (mentored by T. T. Shields, but in an unusual sort of way). And, of course JRR being closely associated with J. Frank Norris in the early years.
In these cases the second generation seemed to accomplish more than the main characters.
Clearwaters was instrumental in founding much of Northern Baptist Fundamentalism, and (at the time) the two educational flagships, Pillsbury Baptist Bible College (my wife's alma mater) and Central Baptist Seminary (where I attended initially).
Shaker, while not a preacher, owned a book store in Toronto and helped countless preachers build reference libraries and served as mentor to hundreds of Baptist preachers, mostly in Canada.
John R. Rice founded The Sword of the Lord which was the largest circulated Christian publication in the world for many years. He also was an early mentor of Billy Graham and tried, unfortunately in vain, to guide Billy away from the ecumenical evangelism which characterized his later ministry.
We have an amazing history if we are just willing to study it. We stand on the shoulders of some remarkable men.
Didn't know about Bob Shaker. No doubt one of the many unsung heroes of fundamentalism. I didn't mention the "initials only" guys of the North because, if my memory serves me, Shields and Riley never really came out of the Northern Baptists, so they weren't really founders of the IFB movement IMO.Yep. The great Fundamental Baptist Triumvirate. W.B. Riley. T.T. Shields. J. Frank Norris (did you ever notice these guys never seemed to have first names?
And the close associates. Richard Clearwaters (W.B. Riley's assistant at First Baptist, Minneapolis, and my mentor and teacher), Bob Shaker (mentored by T. T. Shields, but in an unusual sort of way). And, of course JRR being closely associated with J. Frank Norris in the early years.
And Clearwaters was a "come outer."
Yesterday I was looking at some of the correspondence between Rice and Graham from the John R. Rice Papers.
Billy wrote Rice on Dec. 14 of 1955 telling how his Oxford and Cambridge meetings went, then outlining how the 1957 NY Crusade was being planned, and saying, "Dr. Rice, I am going to need your friendship, support, and prayers. It is my hope that you will use the good offices of the Sword of the Lord to help promote prayer interest everywhere" (John R. Rice Papers at Southwestern). Unfortunately, when Rice gave his advice about the NY Crusade, Graham didn't follow it and then resigned from the board of the Sword.
Amen to that!
And this is what I find to be so odd about these men. It was W.B. Riley whose thunderous denunciation of the Modernism in the NBC, on the Convention floor at the 1920 meeting of the Northern Baptist Convention, that started the ball rolling in the North. But 27 years later his church, First Baptist, was still a contributing member of the NBC!
After some trial and error. He was part of the original CBA but left when it began to show signs of Neo-Evangelicalism (and the start of other schools in "competition" with Central, such as San Francisco Baptist Seminary). He then transferred allegiance to the GARBC which he then distanced himself from (probably over personality issues rather than doctrine). And finally just remained independent.
And I think that was the beginning of the end for Graham. Your grand-dad served as an anchor of sorts to Graham, and when Graham cut those ties he began to drift farther and farther from his original position. (Rather like Jack Hyles - as long as your grand-dad was there to exert a strong influence on him he did okay, but once he lost that anchor he was very soon off in left field.)
Talking to Dr. Robinson once, I made the mistake of saying that no denomination had ever come back from liberalism. Of course he reminded me of the SBC Conservative Resurgence. When I was down at SWBTS for research, Dr. Patterson told me that Rice laid the foundation for his and the Judge's blueprint for the resurgence by informing all of the SBC pastors about the liberalism. The Northern Baptists had not one to do that for them, unfortunately.
And as you know, out of his stand and that Monk Parker and the others came the FBF and my mission board, BWM.
You hit that nail smack on the head. I've had a number of fundamentalist leaders tell me that Hyles went radical because JRR wasn't there to set him straight. But unfortunately, Billy abandoned JRR while he was still alive.
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Yes. I recently read a good article about your brother's book which addresses the fact that so many conservative Southern Baptists were informed about Modernism in the SBC by reading The Sword of the Lord and how the convention owes JRR a debt of gratitude for exposing the soft heart of the Convention, particularly his articles “Southern Baptists–Wolves in Sheep’s Clothing,” “Death in the Pot at Furman University,” and “Liberalism at Southern Seminary Exposed.”
You can read it here:
Between The Times - The Sword of the Lord…and of John R Rice
Yes. And to a slightly lesser extent BMM and ABWE (which have, in my opinion, drifted away from their roots).
Yep. Your grand-dad have a profound effect on Fundamentalism from the 1930s until the time of his death. May his tribe increase and may he be always remembered fondly. (And that is from a 5 Pointer whose like he loved to lambaste in The Sword!)
I have a whole book of his containing these articles. SBC pastors would chafe and rebel and try to correct him with letters--but they read them.
Thanks for the link. I don't remember reading that one, but's it's good.
Yeah, Granddad did not play nicely with most Calvinists. Now Spurgeon, though, that was another story. Pilgrim gave JRR their entire set of Spurgeon for printing so many of his sermons, and even had JRR write the forward to one volume. Bob Ross gave me a copy of that one when I visited their bookstore in TX once.
Those are kind words. Thank you! My best friend from college, a retired cop in Houston, talks the same way though also a 5 pointer. He helped me with my research at Southwestern, and is now a Paige Patterson fan after meeting the man.Yep. Your grand-dad have a profound effect on Fundamentalism from the 1930s until the time of his death. May his tribe increase and may he be always remembered fondly. (And that is from a 5 Pointer whose like he loved to lambaste in The Sword!)